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  • Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai, MIT PhD – Inventor of Email, Systems Scientist, engineer, educator – discusses Maricopa audit anomalies and Election Systems Integrity with Kristi Leigh.
  • Election Systems Integrity Institute said, there are anomalies and we just want to know answers – Let’s move beyond vitriol and controversy and partisanship and have dialogue. As a scientist and as an engineer, my intention is to always find what the truth is. 
  • 52 USC 20701 – the laws on the books ARE to encourage every American citizen to bring up anomalies like we did in our audits, you know, small or large, insignificant, or monumental.
  • Our lawsuit in Massachusetts – Censorship infrastructure – Scientific consensus. When you go at the fundamentals of what’s going on with the censorship infrastructure we uncovered in our lawsuit, when you go at the fundamentals of election malfeasance that we’ve uncovered, when you go at the fundamental of the scientific establishment no longer serving science, we’re going down to root-root-root cause issues – The Great Upheaval
  • Racism – So, I want people to raise their consciousness to recognize that the liberal elites, in most of these liberal institutions, who talk about racism, are the real racists, because they want people to be in their nice little boxes and actually want to separate people. What we’re witnessing here is absolutely brutal control of people – Beyond Left & Right, Beyond Black & White, Working People Unite Truth Freedom Health 


Kristi Leigh, Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai

Kristi: The Maricopa County Election audit saga continues. So, joining me today is Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai. He holds four degrees from MIT, and is also a world-renowned Systems Scientist, inventor, entrepreneur – perhaps best known for inventing email – but most recently garnering attention for his involvement in the election audit there in Maricopa County. Thanks for joining me on, Dr.SHIVA, and please tell me what’s the latest with this because it seems like an ongoing saga?

Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai: Well, the latest is that on September 24th, just to review, is when I presented my findings, from analyzing the images of the early voting ballot envelopes. Right? The return envelopes. We presented that on September 24th. And then, after that, the Attorney General has asked us to submit some more evidence which we’re, frankly, doing today. So, it’s going to move to the attorney general who appears to want to conduct an investigation.

So, remember, the ruling of something being fraud, quote – unquote, fraud, is not what the Senate does, right? The Senate and the House in Arizona pass laws, but it’s the Enforcement Division, which is the Attorney General’s Office, which is one that’s going to decide if something’s fraud, or if people need to be prosecuted, etc. So, that’s where it’s moving to and we’ve been asked to provide some more evidence for that. So that’s what the status is.

Kristi: Okay. And then you actually have an event. Are you still planning on having an event on Thursday?

Dr.SHIVA: Tomorrow. Yeah, so one of the things that we have been really trying to educate people on, and frankly educate everyone on, because this issue of election integrity – you have to understand Republicans have been using, what I call the squishiness, or the arbitrary nature of these Systems to do election malfeasance against other Republicans. Democrats have been doing it against Democrats. Democrats have been doing it to Republicans. Republicans have been doing it against Democrats. This is Systemic. And that’s what people need to understand, the issues that we’re dealing with – they’re looking at Systems. In the modern world, we have engineering Systems.

So, for example, the airplane System, right, the health care System, and you go on. The election voting system is a complex System. And if you think about it very simply, if you were in the business of making cookies, right, and you look at a cookie manufacturing plant – the flour and the chocolate chips come in on one end and it goes through a process. And at the end of it, you get cookies.

Now, if there’s something wrong with the cookies, simply just looking at the cookies at the end of the process doesn’t solve it. You have to go way upstream into that process. Where did the flour come from? Where did the chocolate chips come from? Right? How are they processed? This is fundamentally called an Engineering System and the modern world is composed of all the Systems that we as humans rely on. And if in any one of those processes, something is not correctly managed, if something’s not transparent, if you frankly, don’t know what the process is, that’s where “ fraud,” can take place.

And what we’re noticing here is we looked at the process of when an early voting ballot envelope, let’s say, comes to you, you sign it, put your ballot in, and you send it back. Then it starts this process. It’s called the Early Voting Ballot Processing Process. Right? When people are getting all these early voting ballots, the envelopes are first scanned and then after they’re scanned, people are looking at the signature on the cover of that envelope and then deciding if that signature matches what they have on file. And if it’s blank, you know, they go through these processes.

Well, it’s a very complicated process. The interesting thing is this process is not really fully transparent. So, when we found different anomalies in this process, right, we raised questions. We never accused anyone. If you remember that at the hearing that I gave, there were no accusations. We said, there are anomalies and we just want to know the answers. The response, unfortunately, the culture of response by the Maricopa County officials and through their media proxies, has been not to really have a transparent dialogue.

So, this Thursday, from 12 to 4 p.m., Eastern Standard Time, on behalf of the public, we’re going to essentially discuss everything that’s public. I have a right to discuss everything that’s in the public stage here, which is all the reports we filed, any of the information we’ve shared publicly. And it is basically to invite the Maricopa County officials to a dialogue to say: “Hey, look, I’m the one who did the audit. You are the person who can answer this. Let’s have an open dialogue.”

So, we’ve done it as an open forum. I’m not sure if they’ll come but perhaps other election officials will come. So, this left-right divide is really unfortunate because it’s never going to solve a Systems problem. So, tomorrow, Thursday, I think it’s October 14th, 12 to 4 p.m. People can watch it on my YouTube or my Facebook. We’ll have a call in – where people can, we’ll go over all the anomalies. It’s for the press, it’s for the public, it’s for the Maricopa County officials. It’s basically to say: “Let’s move beyond vitriol and controversy and partisanship and have dialogue.”

Kristi: And that’s the biggest pushback you get with this is people have tried to squash it. Definitely the mainstream media said, “all this audit did was prove that Biden won.” And it’s been so divisive in that manner. But what I found interesting in reading up on this is you say you didn’t even vote for Donald Trump in 2020. And that this is just to have, to follow the books, to follow the rule of law that we have in place.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, in fact, I critique Trump. You know, I never, first of all, I’ve never been, never voted in the electoral process, even though I’ve been a US citizen since 1981. Never voted because I didn’t believe in the left-right narrative. I was an activist. I mean, I put that into one of the documents. I’ve been a ground activist, organizing people to do the anti-war protests, organizing food service workers when I was a student at MIT, you know, exposing corruption in academia.

I’ve been a fighter but I never believed in the two-party system. The first time I ever voted was because of Trump’s rhetoric and his uncompromising attack was what inspired me. But during his presidency and after I had some serious issues, you know, nothing happened to Hillary, for example. Right? We did Operation Warp Speed, in spite of, you know, the many communications we had with the White House about Fauci. He did say, to tell some of these very, you know, close supporters, that he’d walk with them to the Capitol and then he drove off and people got killed. And in fact, the people that did get locked up were his supporters.

I brought up these contradictions, you know, not in any malevolent way, but to state that – you have to address the fact – that if you’re going to go after the establishment, you can’t really compromise and you have to surround yourself with those people who actually want to go do the right thing. And I don’t think that occurred in those four years. In my view, what occurred was that we allowed various parts of the establishment to actually get even stronger. And that’s why Biden was able to come in and execute all the vaccine mandates and those things.

I’ve been critical. That’s why I didn’t vote in 2020, but I did vote in 2016. And as a scientist and as an engineer, my intention is to always find what the truth is. And the Systems Approach is the way you do it. You know, every Monday evening, we started a whole way of teaching people this. If people go to We now have 60,000 people all over the world who are recognizing, not only in the United States, that we need to go beyond this left-right paradigm.

So, there’s an approach to train people on this. And it’s called an Engineering Systems Approach where you start looking at the world as a System. There’s a science to it. And that’s why when you look at these Election Systems, it’s not left or right. There’s an engineering process here. And if the election officials in this country were the ones who ran, let’s say the airport systems, we’d have planes falling out of the sky. Probably every other day because they don’t really have to follow a process. It’s all very squishy and arbitrary.

Kristi: But to that end, there is a System and there’s actually laws on the books to protect the vote to protect people’s vote. Many that seem unaware of the right to do an audit. Did you want to talk about that because we’ve heard a lot of people say, “Oh, just even questioning our vote is un-American.” Did you want to speak on that?

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah. So, one of the things you know, I was scheduled to speak at the House and they had someone else go, which is fine. But when most of these congressmen do not even know the law – the law 52 USC 20701, which was passed around 50 years ago, by the way, by a democratic majority, was to encourage audits.

52 USC 20701 says, the 22 months after an election is when Americans are encouraged to audit things, encouraged to bring up questions, encouraged to bring up anomalies. That is what the law was set for. So, when this guy Ro Khanna was asking the question, you know, that it was un-American to essentially run an audit, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s a Yale, I think he is a Yale Juris Doctor. So, he’s sort of either dumb, or he basically doesn’t understand the law, or both.

But the reality is that the laws on the books are to encourage every American citizen to bring up anomalies, like we did in our audits, you know, small or large, insignificant, or monumental. Because when you bring up anomalies – You know, I run a couple of companies. When customers call us saying, hey, our technology is not working, we don’t say you’re a conspiracy theorist, we don’t say you’re an anti-vaxxer, we don’t call them names; we say thank you, we’ll go look into it. Some of it may be stupid; some of it may be right on target. Sometimes it’s something really small that leads to a larger problem which we go solve. In business, you have to solve these problems; otherwise, you’re going to be out of business.

But these guys, these unelected officials, many of them who they are, think that they can violate engineering principles – which is when someone reports something, it is your job to have a culture of embracing it, thanking people, and going and finding out what it is and transparently answering it. So, 52 USC 2071 was set up to support that engineering process.

Kristi: Now, speaking of calling names – I know that you’ve endured a lot of personal attacks, but then I found it interesting that in your response to some of those personal attacks, you threw out that some people are being racist, which got a little bit of heat in and of itself. – Do you want to expand on that or explain that?

Dr.SHIVA:Yeah, it’s very important to discuss racism. You see, for far too long, the left has had a hegemony on the discussion of race. So, let me explain my definition of racism which is really the accurate definition. You see, what happened is that the right, the Republicans, deny that racism exists. Right? So that has created a vacuum for the left to own racism.

And so, their definition of racism is very narrow. For example, if you use the N word, or if you oppose affirmative action, you must be a racist. Are you following what I’m saying? So, they have engineered it that they have bounded racism into a very, very small box. So, there is a racism. And the real racism is this. It is putting people into a box and saying, if you are black then you must talk this way, speak this way, be like this.

If you are a white person from the south, you must obviously hate black people, right? If you’re an Indian, you must be moving your head from right to left, and support Gandhi, and not be an aggressive person, and not expose corruption, for example. You see? So, they put people into these boxes. And putting people into those boxes, what I call a segregationist box, is the real racism. And the racism occurs specifically when people step out of that box.

So, I’ll give you an example. When I was at MIT, when I came there in 1981, I was on the front page for

– a note was there that I created the first email system and then I didn’t think much about it. I never promoted it. Won a bunch of awards at MIT, was on the front page of MIT, when I won my Fulbright, started the first email management company, and many other things. But when my materials from the invention of email went into the Smithsonian, it created a “controversy.” There is no controversy.

Now, what created that controversy was because I didn’t invent email while at MIT. I invented it before I came to MIT, in the ghettos of Newark, New Jersey, in a small medical college in the center of Newark, New Jersey. So, the reality was that all great innovations must come from this bastion of technology, MIT, and surely couldn’t come from somewhere else. You see, I stepped out of the box.

So, in this case, we want to call out the “ lefties,” the liberal elites, for their racism because a guy like me, in their mind – and this is their real racism – a brown skinned Indian guy who’s highly educated, has all these degrees, is accomplished, is supposed to be a liberal Democrat. And I surely should not be doing an audit. Right? That may expose the liberal elites that they may have done some malfeasance. So, Ro Khanna, if you know that congressman, you know, he fits into that nice box. He’s a “good Indian,” but I’m not being a good Indian. And that’s really the subtext of these attacks, when they try to brand me as a conspiracy theorist, when they try to say he’s an anti-vaxxer.

You know, you try to brand people and you ignore the fact that they did go through the American dream, did work hard, and got all those accomplishments on their own. And that’s what they want to deny. You see, so if I had gotten all those accomplishments and didn’t do election fraud analysis with all the skills I’ve gotten, then I’d be a good Indian. But that’s really the subtext here.

And so, we need to have a discourse on racism in America because the right-wing and the Republicans have done grave harm here by saying it doesn’t exist. So, it’s created this unfortunate vacuum for the left to own it. And I’m saying that someone like me, who has actually endured real racism and sees racism in a very different way, you know, we’ll talk about this.

Yes, you are racist when you brand, a guy who worked extremely hard, earned all of his degrees, is a Fulbright Scholar, you know, has done his accomplishments and you try to just narrowly – when you lead with that statement and the way they brand you – that’s saying we’re going to lynch you publicly – “ lynch you” because you’ve stepped out of your box – That is a racism.

So, I want people to raise their consciousness to recognize that the liberal elites in most of these liberal institutions, who talk about racism, are the real racists because they want people to be in their nice little boxes and actually want to separate people. If you go to any of these universities, you’ll find out there’s 100, you know, 300 different little clubs. There’s the African Americans Club. Right? There’s a Black Students’ Union. There’s the Afro Students’ Union, there’s a Latin Students’ Union, and there’s a Cubans. I mean, they’ve created a little club for every ethnic group. Right?

And they support that through funds and federal funds. So, if you truly cared about bringing people together, why are you creating so many different little boxes for everyone? So, that’s the real racism. There is a racism. So that’s why in that attack – I said this is not only misinformation and disinformation in my case, but it’s a racist smear campaign. And I wanted to educate people on racism. It was fascinating when they said, he’s crying racism. It’s fascinating because typically the right will state that. So, here’s the left, when I’m calling them out on the real racism, getting upset at that when they are the real racists.

Kristi: And to that end, before we move on from this subject, I wanted to get your thoughts on this because you’ve said, I’m not Republican, I’m not Democrat, I actually don’t like the two-party system. I’ve actually said the same thing, multiple times. I don’t identify as either. I truly don’t. But when it seems like whenever you are not with the narrative with what is accepted by the media, they label you as right-wing or Republican.

And we’ve even seen a long-time classic liberals, like Glenn Greenwald, who is a homosexual classic liberal bit, all of a sudden being called right-wing. We’ve seen Brett Weinstein being called, or Weinstein, being called a right-wing. So, what is going on with if you’re not Democrat, you’re all of a sudden, all the way over to the other side. What’s going on with that?

Dr.SHIVA:Yeah, I mean, one of the things we do is we say you need to go beyond left & right. What’s happened is, it’s neoliberalism that’s been taught in most of the large institutions. And look, Noam Chomsky used to be a mentor of mine. Okay. And I disagree with Noam on many, many things, because he’s become blindsided to this neoliberalism, even though he attacks neoliberalism.

Because, you know, what’s happened is most of the university elites have fashioned what they believe to be the right way of doing stuff. And the right way of doing stuff is that the academic institutions are the ones that know best. Right? We know better. Freedom should be suppressed under certain conditions. Right? It’s good to suppress certain kinds of knowledge. And so, they’ve essentially gone against, essentially, the scientific method. So, because once you do that, you can now start branding people because now you’ve become, frankly, unscientific.

So, the process has been – first of all, what we discovered in my lawsuit in Massachusetts was we discovered the Censorship Infrastructure – And that means you basically define what is acceptable discussion, discourse, and what’s unacceptable discourse. So, first you contain freedom. And once you contain freedom, you can contain debate and discourse, which means you can contain what is truth.

And so, what we’ve done is we don’t practice the scientific method, which is you throw out a bunch of ideas, you have to validate it in the marketplace of ideas. So, once you limit that, you go to what’s called, scientific consensus now. And that is how academia has become. A bunch of people say yes, the sun goes around the Earth. Yep, that’s true. Doesn’t matter that you have evidence that’s false, right?

Yes, CO2 is what we need to lower and that’ll save the world’s environment. Yes, you know, everyone needs to get the same jab and then you’re going to be cured of all types of immune issues. Right? So, we’ve created this very reductionist view. And this has come as a result of the scientific method being annihilated which resulted from freedom – from censorship – being enforced. And all of this started at the major elite institutions.

And the reason this happened is because of, fundamentally, capital flow. So, if you look at any of these areas, be it Big Pharma, right? Be it education. Be it any of these things, there’s an immense amount of capital involved. And they need to control certain narratives so they can sell, frankly, a product. They can monopolize, ultimately, a product or a service. So, it’s ultimately related to money.

Kristi: And going, I want to get more into that in a minute, but I wanted to get back to the election thing. This isn’t the first time you’ve come into election issues. Didn’t you have your own personal lawsuit with election integrity when you ran for federal Senate?

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I would say that it is our work in Massachusetts, which then dovetailed to the work we did for the Trump election, which really started, frankly, a lot of the movement here, the real movement for election integrity. That movement for election integrity has been typically, again, been owned by the left for 20-30 years and they’ve essentially destroyed it.

So, we came. We were the new kids on the block. And it was personally what occurred to me in Massachusetts. You know, we ran for office as a Republican, in the Massachusetts GOP, which is a highly, highly corrupt organization. We had 3000 volunteers on the ground, 20,000 lawn signs, 10,000 bumper stickers. We raised $2 million dollars, which is a lot for primary. And the Massachusetts GOP ran a person against us who no one even knew.

The word on the street was we won that by a landslide. I mean, you couldn’t get around Massachusetts without knowing who Dr.SHIVA was. So, when the results came in on September 1st, 2020, it turns out, in the hand counted, primarily hand counted county, Franklin County, we won by 10 points. And in every other county that was machine counted, we win – we lose – 60-40, 60-40, 60-40, 60-40, to a guy no one even knew. He didn’t even have any lawn signs out there. No, no campaign. So, that’s when I realized that something seriously wrong is going on in this country. That began my journey to using all the engineering skills I have to understand the voting systems.

We filed our lawsuit when we found out that my votes were flipped. We showed that mathematically. But then, more importantly, what occurred was – when I started sharing this on social media (I had close to 360,000 Twitter followers.) – we exposed that the state election director of Massachusetts, in a series of email conversations, admitted that she deleted ballot images which are the images of the ballots, and she said we don’t have to save them by Massachusetts law.

That’s false because 52 USC 20701 for a federal election demands that you say them for 22 months. So, those email conversations I shared on social media, essentially implicating her of criminal violation. She then contacted Twitter, to what we discovered later in my lawsuit was a “Twitter Partnership.” The governments of every government, local and state government, have a partnership with Twitter, which is what our lawsuit uncovered. And they use that partnership to silence a US Senate candidate.

Think about what I’m saying. Political speech is the highest form of protection. We moved our campaign to the general election, as a write in campaign. I was still a bona fide candidate. And the state election director of Massachusetts contacted Twitter, through their portal, through their VVIP portal, to shut down a US Senate candidate.

Well, we got all the terms of our TRO. It went into a full-blown lawsuit. Twitter was brought into the lawsuit. The judge had me bring Twitter. And by the way, I filed a lawsuit all by myself, no swamp lawyer in Massachusetts wanted to take it on. So, it was me against seven lawyers. On May 20th in that lawsuit, we exposed – we discovered what are called the “playbooks,” which if people go to, they can find those playbooks.

Documents which show that the government has created a recipe, a user’smanual, for how state and local officials will silence anyone, any American, who even says that they are corrupt. Okay, so we expose that in court. The judge was freaked out. He said this lawsuit will be taught in every constitutional law class. And then he’s the one who recommended a lawyer. And, you know, seven weeks into this, we found out the lawyer who we got did not want to go after the Rico Conspiracy we discovered.

He just wanted me to go back on Twitter and walk on my way. But we discovered so much through those Playbooks and the Long Fuse Report, which was done at Stanford and showed that I was being surveilled since 2020, along with five other people, including Trump, Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, James O’Keefe, and one other person. So, it got too hot even for the judge to handle and the judge sealed our lawsuit.

That’s what happened. And we didn’t want to just be on Twitter and we said forget that. I’m not going to give you guys the victory to say you put me back on Twitter and therefore everything resolved. I said I’m walking away. But we are going to expose a larger issue that we don’t have the First Amendment in this country. It’s gone.

And Tucker Carlson didn’t talk about it. In fact, Glenn Greenwald didn’t talk about it. So, it’s almost as though there are sort of the grifter people who are now recognizing that they need to go beyond left & right. Tucker Carlson is one of the most awful people in this because he’s part of the Not-So-Obvious Establishment. Tucker watches which way the wind blows.

He’s too little, too late. In fact, this whole thing with the vaccine issue – when you really look at it – I was the first one from a scientific basis to expose Fauci. And the guy’s a complete charlatan. He has been around through administration after administration. And the reality is, when you look at it from a scientific approach – you know, my PhD is in Biological Engineering – the guy knows nothing about the immune system. In fact, all the policies that they are enforcing are based on 100-year-old model of the immune system. In 2019, I was asked to give the lecture at the National Science Foundation, an invited lecture, on the modern theory of the immune system. And everyone knows that the immune system is very complex.

But the bottom line is, what’s happened is, with the suppression of discourse, we now control science. So, it’s scientific consensus versus the scientific method. And that’s why – when you annihilate freedom, when you annihilate science, you don’t really know what’s good for your health. And when you have unhealthy people, they don’t have the strength to fight for freedom. That’s why the movement that we have created, now it’s now a global movement, TruthFreedomHealth. Our slogan is beyond left & right. But every Monday evening, we train people to really understand the Systems Approach. There is a nuclear physics, there’s a science to understand how to build movements. And that science is what needs to be taught. Otherwise, people are going to be grifting all day.

Kristi: So, my question is – is you’ve had the success of bringing evidence. You’ve dug deep. You’ve been able to bring it forward. You’ve even won many lawsuits. How do you not get discouraged because from the outside, what’s it mean because nothing’s changing. Are we ever going to see anybody held accountable? So, in essence, what good is the evidence?

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, Kristi, the bottom line is this. No change is going to come from the legal system. The fundamental change, when you go at the fundamentals of what’s going on with the Censorship Infrastructure we uncovered in our lawsuit, when you go at the fundamentals of election malfeasance that we’ve uncovered, when you go at the fundamental of the scientific establishment no longer serving science, we’re going down to root-root-root cause issues. And if you go back to history, root cause issues were never solved by lawsuits.

They were never solved by legislation. They were solved by something much more fundamental – people’s movements, actual, and to be specific, working people’s movements. In the 1800s, in 1886, four American workers were shot for basically fighting, not shot, they were hanged, because they fought for the eight-hour workday in Haymarket Chicago. Workers all over the world commemorated that as Mayday. It was not a communist holiday.

It was an American – it was truly a commemoration of the American working class. By late 1800s, early 1900s, there was what was called a Great Upheaval. And by the mid 1900s, that Upheaval is what put a gun to the head of the establishment, Democrats and Republicans, and they built infrastructure in this country. That’s when we eliminated child labor. That’s when we started doing nutrition. That’s when we started building water systems and infrastructure.

So, it has been movements, beyond left & right, beyond black & white, working people uniting, that has always created change. You know, the Southwest Airline workers striking, the construction workers in Australia, who spit on their own unions and broke from them. That’s where real change is going to happen. It’s not going to occur through elections because the system is too swampy, it’s too deep, and it will take way too long. It’s going to occur through people’s bottom’s up movements.

When working people strike, when nurses don’t – Look, if the transportation workers in the United States – you know, only 15% are controlled by the Teamsters, the other 85% are small business owners, truckers – when they strike, that’s power. And that’s the kind of movement we need. Because the issues we’re dealing with are no longer little tweaks to the situation. We’re dealing with fundamental issues that the scientific method has been obliterated. We’re dealing with the fundamental issue that the First Amendment has been obliterated. And it’s gone.

And we’re dealing with the fundamental issue that health is not based on getting healthy. As long as you can profit from people’s unhealthiness, we are never going to solve health. Pharmaceutical companies have been losing money for the last decade. Pfizer lost $25 billion dollars. Their model of drug development is medieval.They need vaccines. It’s actually much more simple than any of the conspiracy stuff. Pharma is losing money. They’re losing a lot of money.

The pharmaceutical process is highly regulated – you can get sued. Vaccines, thank you to Ted Kennedy and the Kennedys, they’re not – you can’t sue pharmaceutical companies. A vaccine is a biologic – it doesn’t need to get as much regulation – 17% growth per year. Pharmaceutical drugs – $1 in investment – they’re only getting 1.8 cents back. So, they’re not making money from pharmaceutical drugs. So, they have to move to vaccines and these new modes where they’re not regulated and you can’t sue them.

Kristi: And then as far as what’s happening and seeing these things obliterated, I will say that the other side seems to have been much more organized and much more passionate. And to the point that it seems like the other side that’s fighting for freedom is just constantly scrambling and playing whack-a-mole, which is what I feel like I’m doing all the time, even in my local government system. So, how do we get organized when I feel like we’re already five steps behind the organization and methods that the other side has been using?

Dr.SHIVA: Well, the way we move forward is that people need to go to the physics. You know, I spent 50 years understanding Systems Theory. I grew up in India when I was young which had the caste system. So, you’re looking at a person who’s a System Scientist and has loved political theory. So, it was about 5-10 years ago I put all this together into a curriculum to teach people how do we build a movement. Movements are not just going to happen, Kristi. Oppression oppresses.

It’s not like you oppress people enough the world is going to change. It’s not how it works. There is a physics. There is a science. I may send you this video, or I may play it right now if you want. But there is a science of building a movement. And that science is the physics of how to build a movement and it comes from Systems Science. So, to all of your viewers, they should go to and sign up because I used to teach this course at MIT – I’ve taught it all over the world.

But we’ve congealed this course to teach people that the principles that run your body as a System are the same principles that run this computer as a System, that run election voting systems as a System, that run the world. And when people understand that – those concepts – which I’ve figured out how to educate people in less than about an hour, then people can have the foundational ideas and how to build a movement. So, what we’ve done is we’ve actually created that curriculum. We have now 60,000 people all over the world who’ve been trained and we’re creating leaders all over the world.

But the idea is we need to create a Bottom’s Up Movement that goes Beyond Left & Right. And that movement has to be founded on recognizing that the way the world changes is working people – people who make things, people who produce things, people who take care of others – when those people organize and recognize that the power is in them, that’s how the world changes. I mean, come on legislation, lobbyists in the United States – you know, the judges are bought and paid for. Do you really think anything foundational is going to happen on the foundational issues of our time? No way. We’re fooling ourselves.

Kristi: To that end, bringing it, bringing it full circle – What is your prediction of what’s going to happen with what you found in Maricopa County? Will anything be done about it? Will the Attorney General do anything about it? And will we see anything be done in any other state coming out of this?

Dr.SHIVA: Well, look, tomorrow, October 14th, I’m holding an open forum. I do what I do to help advance the knowledge of people. That’s what came out of the Maricopa audit. The anomalies we found – that is moving to the Attorney General. I’m not sure of all the dynamics there. So, it’s hard for me to predict that. That’s out of my control but I will be here to give as much evidence as they need.

But what I can do – and what you can do and everyone listening – is that we can go direct to people and educate people. You know, on the – what we’ve done through our community that we’re building is we’ve done these little cards and flyers, Kristi, that people can print out. We educate people. So, we have people going on the ground neighbor to neighbor educating people. You know, I’ll be doing this forum tomorrow inviting people independently. So, we need to build independent movements with the right education because we don’t know what politicians will do. Right? That’s out of our hands. There are too many forces there.

But let me tell you this, you going and speaking to 10 neighbors with the right basis of understanding Systems, beyond left & right, you can have a tremendous amount of impact. And my view is if we get about 50,000 people worldwide, understanding the Science of Systems and going beyond left or right and becoming educators – that’s how the world is going to change. You need a certain number of people who are highly conscious of these issues who are willing to move beyond Republican & Democrat and left & right. I don’t mean to be independents.

I mean truly understanding on every one of these issues the physics here. If you take any one of these issues – masks, the jabs, racism, workers’ wages – every one of those issues, every one of those issues has been split into a dialectic – pro-mask, anti-mask Right? Pro-vax, anti-vax, right? Pro, you know, I believe racism exists, racism doesn’t exist, pro-union, anti-union. So, the establishment has created these dialectics. But if you go beyond that, you find that on any one of these issues is the actual problem that everyone can agree to. So, for example, mask and anti-mask, or vax and anti-vax, you can argue with people and I have my position, but ultimately, everyone cares about public health. Right? We all want public health. Then the issue comes once you identify the real problem. You have to ask do masks and vaccines get us to public health.

Well, when you really study history, you find out we got to public health through infrastructure. Go back to the 1900s. It was water Systems. It was nutrition. It was eliminating child labor. Massachusetts has an F minus-minus in infrastructure by the American Society of Civil Engineers.The United States has a D. So, you go to schools – they don’t even have the proper ventilation systems.

So, you’re telling people to wear masks and do all this other stuff when you don’t even, when the infrastructure in the United States is completely decaying. And if you really want to solve public health, why don’t you go do that? But you can’t do that because your politicians are all corrupt. So, how do you actually get infrastructure? It’s going to come through a movement. So, like this, every one of these issues we can trace to the real problem and the real solution and get beyond, what I call, the dialectic of left and right, or pro or anti. It’s going to come through education.

Kristi: Yeah. I think there’s so many people that that really speaks to because whether they are on one side or the other, they see that this is a problem that there even is just only two sides that they demand we pick from. So, I’m definitely going to be including links to – Yeah, I, you’re speaking to me right now – so, I – I am interested.

Dr.SHIVA: You should take the course. Please join us. Everyone should go to We made it really accessible. You know, I used to charge $1000s for this. We made it like nothing for people to come in and take it. But all of that infrastructure we’re putting into our educational infrastructure. My great grandfather was an indentured servant, a slave. You know, he had no money, but if someone in the village came to him and asked him for a book, he would figure out some way to get them a book. It’s education.

You know, ignorance is a cause of all suffering. And that’s where we’re at. We are at this point in history because we have been drawn into outsourcing our civic responsibilities to politicians, billionaires, and celebrities. They’re not going to do anything. They have golden handcuffs. All right? It’s only going to happen when you understand the physics of how the world operates. So, we’ve made that accessible – and people start getting educated and they start becoming catalysts. We don’t need followers, we don’t need followers. We need educators and catalysts now to educate people on how to go beyond left & right. There’s no other way change is going to come.

We’re just going to be going through the Republican pendulum then the Democrat pendulum and then we’re going to go back and forth. You know, we’re all going to be misused and abused. The American worker right now – 25% of Americans are out of jobs. Very important. The average American has maybe $400 in their bank account – 80% of Americans. In the last 40 years, the unions – the real workers’ movements – have been destroyed. During 1940 to 1980, there were 11 million strikes in the United States and nearly 100 million people participated. And during that time, the American economy grew for everyone.

Because when we fought, we got our rights. During 1980 to today, because the left and the right collaborated and they destroyed the real spirit of unions, there is no workers’ movement. There were only maybe 900 strikes in the last 40 years; and then maybe only 2 million workers participated. And now we have two American pies. One American pie for the Jeff Bezos’s and the 5% or the .5% and the other for the other working Americans – which is shrinking. Over the last, since 1950, $50,000 to $70,000 has been transferred from working people to the elites.

So yeah, there’s been socialism, for the elites. So, all of this – the jab, the censorship, the mask mandates – this is part of a long process of control. It’s about controlling working people. And the American worker is a tip of the spear of a real movement because they had the First Amendment and they still have the Second Amendment. So, what we’re witnessing here is absolutely brutal control of people. It has, frankly, nothing to do with vaccines and masks. It has to do with the fact that those are instruments of control.

Kristi: Absolutely and I think that’s a phenomenal way to end this interview – is with those thoughts. I think a lot of people can relate, no matter what side they are on, with just the real divide being the elite and the working class. Period.

Dr.SHIVA: Working people unite. What we say in our, the slogan is Beyond Left & Right, Beyond Black & White, Working People Unite for Truth Freedom Health. That’s the only way changes come. No other way significant change has ever come. Politicians always come later. They jump on the bandwagon afterwards. You know, when they see that they may be out of business. They will never lead to anything.

Kristi: Very good thoughts. Very good analysis. All right, thank you, Dr.SHIVA.

The original research in this video is made possible by generous contributions from supporters of the Dr.SHIVA Truth Freedom Health® movement. Please contribute so we may continue to bring you such original research, valuable education, and innovative solutions.

Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai, MIT PhD in Biological Engineering, the Inventor of Email, Scientist, Engineer, Educator discusses Maricopa Audit Anomalies. And Election Systems Integrity with Kristi Leigh

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