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In this discussion, join Dr.SHIVA and other #TruthFreedomHealth Warrior-Scholars for a public dialog to have a conversation on Pro-Life and Pro-Choice to reveal the real issues – Beyond Left & Right.

Key Points

  • Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai, MIT PhD – Inventor of Email, Systems Scientist, Engineer, Educator – has a conversation about the Pro-Life & Pro-Choice label hypocrisy with a guest panel of Truth Freedom Health® Warrior-Scholars.
  • The speakers included women and men of different backgrounds, nationality, religion and age. After the recap of Dr.Shiva’s videos and comments from the panel, Dr.Shiva took calls from the audience to discuss their concerns.
  • Comments by guests: “We need to create an Infrastructure, an environment where people can thrive, they can realize their full potential, realize we need to give them tools, we need to cultivate them, we need to provide infrastructure where they can realize their full potential to be a Human”. 
  • “It doesn’t just pose risk for the infant, it poses risk for the mother receiving the abortion as well, both physically and emotionally. And that is also a risk that they’re taking, when they sign to consent to an abortion, they’re consenting to the risk involved for their own life, not just their infant’s life.”
  • System Science is very powerful in that it allows you not to just reduce these issues to the single for this conversation. It’s not just about a fetus, it’s about much more, it’s about the Mother, it’s about the whole Society, the Infrastructure. Why we have this, forced kind of need for abortion. It allows us to kind of expand the conversation and to break through that dialectic to understand the whole picture. And it also makes it very clear that we need to fight for our economic opportunities, and that we want Truth Freedom Health®.”

The original research in this video is made possible by generous contributions from supporters of the Dr.SHIVA Truth Freedom Health® movement. Please contribute so we may continue to bring you such origial research, valuable education, and innovative solutions.


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Dr.SHIVA LIVE A Conversation Pro-Life & Pro-Choice. Call-In Show for Public Dialog.

Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai: Good evening, everyone, it’s Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai, we’re going to wait for people to join. But today we’re doing a conversation and a call and people can call in when it’s appropriate. But we’re going to be doing a call-in show shortly. And, and we’re going to be having an open discussion about this topic today, which is a conversation about Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. And we really want to have a conversation, we want to make this a call-in event. And when I put up the number, don’t call in now.

We want to have an open dialogue. And we really want to go Beyond Left and Right. And that’s what we want to do. So, we want to wait until people come in. And, and we want to invite everyone to call in. But we also have a roundtable of people, let me just bring people in.

We have men and women of all different backgrounds, have different religious backgrounds, different ethnic backgrounds, different sexual proclivities, all different backgrounds here, and people of different racial backgrounds, mixed race, non-mixed race. So, it’s a pretty broad background of people. And we can have more now – obviously, we’re looking for all of you to participate.

But the goal is we’re going to review a couple of days ago, I did a video talking about the Hypocrisy of the labeling of people as Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, and how it was actually creating an unfortunate dynamic of splitting, Left & Right, Black & White, Working People. And so, what we want to do today is really have a discussion about where you can participate.

And first, we’re going to review some of the topics that I covered last week. And then we’re gonna have an open discussion, and I’ll put the phone number up. And we want to hear from you guys. Because we believe that it’s time to really have a conversation about this. So, we can get over all the nonsense and really focus on what the Real Issues are.

As so, let me just jump into what I covered last week. So, if you remember, last week, what I shared was that the agenda of that talk was we reviewed the Hypocrisy of Pro-Life, the Hypocrisy of Pro-Choice, we also went to the root cause of what the Big Issues are; What’s the Path Forward and really asking the question: Are people ready to Think?

Our movement for Truth Freedom Health® really asks a fundamental question: Do people want to Think? Or do they want to be manipulated by labeling, by essentially, narratives with the media does with the courts do and then all of us are drawn into some very, very pre-organized discussion.

In that discussion I went through and I also shared with you the importance of the Foundations of Systems course, why it is the only vehicle on the planet Earth to teach people how to think we talked about the interconnection between Truth Freedom Health®, that in order to really understand any issue scientifically, we have to have Freedom of discourse, which leads us to do Science, which finds out what’s right for our bodies, or infrastructure, etc.

And that allows us to participate in fighting for Freedom and Truth. And, in this context, we also shared with many of you that we want people to “Learn How to Think” and you can, we’ve made this book free, you just have to pay for shipping and handling. And we also invited many of you to come to our Orientation every Thursday, 11am and 8pm.

Our movement invites you to have a direct orientation with me. So, all of that stuff there. Let me just put some Hello notes. We have people from different parts, calling us, finally people say, “some brains Pro-Life all the way”. Excellent video, someone said, “very helpful”. “Greetings.” So, we have people coming in, very nice to have you.

And so anyway, let me, so what we also did was we went into that, and we went into the Hypocrisy, okay, so on the Pro-Life side, so by the way, we’re not talking about the hypocrisy of, of the Pro-Life movement or the Pro-Choice movement. We’re talking about these labels. That’s what we want to get very, very clear, just not to attack anyone personally.

But we want to really talk about these labels, which we think are very interesting labels, where each group is put into this very righteous mode. But the typically the Pro-Life model believes, by the way, save the baby before birth, and I made it very clear in my conversation as a Biologist, that is absolutely unequivocal, unequivocal that life begins at conception. You can’t really get around that.

It’s a biological fact – forget even anything religious but it’s a, as a biologist, it’s a biological fact. So that’s sort of the scientific position on that. But the Pro-Life people want to really talk about save the baby before birth. The other thing is insurance. But what we wanted to talk about, or we want to talk about when you look at the word Pro-Life, what are some of those attributes that we would talk about Pro-Life, Beyond that?

Well, I think Pro-Life would mean, the life of the mother is how we want it, we would also, a movement that was truly Pro-Life would say, hey, what about what the mom is eating? Is she eating healthy foods? What is her condition before and during birth? Right? So maybe the mom is in her 20s? Or 30s?

What’s her life like before that so the 30 years before the baby’s born? What does that look like, by way of example, also, a pro-life truly being Pro-Life would be you want to ensure the newborn has access to great health, right? Non-GMO food, organic foods, clean water, clean air, clean foods, right?

This would also be part of this Pro-Life, rubric, the mother should also be able to provide great maternal care, that would be Pro-Life would net and then we talked about, ensure that the family and the child get basic needs and a decent quality of life. That’s Pro-Life, for example, access to baby formula, if needed.

And we know what’s happened with that. We would also consider Pro-Life being that we don’t want to support imperialist wars, right? If you’re Pro-Life, how could you say you’re Pro-Life, you’re great to make sure the baby’s safe before birth, babies born and then the 18-year-old kid born into a poor family gets to go off halfway around the world and kill brown people, yellow people, black people. God knows for what reason except help a few elites mine more lithium, for example, right?

So that would be Pro-Life, no child trafficking, that should be part of Pro-Life, and Infrastructure. Because without Infrastructure, how’s that baby going to have a fair shot at survival and success? All right. So, this is what we said would be truly Pro-Life.

And we also want to make sure that they would be allowed time for the mother and child after birth, to have a good life. So, the mother could take care of the child, maybe time is set aside. And this would be a very important period, because it’s a very important period for child development.

So, I just want everyone to look at that. And I just want to go to our panel here. We’ll be introducing them shortly. Any other things we’ve left up out on Pro-Life? John, Crystal, Suresh, Emily, Ken? They were pretty good, right? And any one of you have anything else that we would consider Pro-Life?

Dan Church says, “Amazing that is extremely basic info is a huge upgrade in thinking to most.” Thanks, Dan.

So, this is what we would call Pro-Life however, we again, there’s no personal attack, however, the quote unquote, “Pro-Life movement.” Oh, by the way, we also talked about ensure mom is able to produce good healthy breast milk, that would be Pro-Life. Okay. However, the Pro-Life movement focuses on this one or, you know, important thing, don’t kill the baby before birth. It’s murder that really has what the Pro-Life movement, none of these issues are really part of the Pro-Life movement. At least I haven’t seen it.

Someone said here, for example, “Flint, Michigan, water is not Pro-Life.” Exactly. Thank you, The Tribe. Perfect.

All right. So, we talked about, so this label Pro-Life sounds very righteous, Pro-Life. But it’s really about this, it’s really not about all the things that occur, let’s say. take 30 years before the baby’s born in the case of a mother, and maybe the 80 years that the baby lives after. So, it doesn’t look at that 110-year period, it looks at that one-year period, nine months, it’s about 1% of the things that lead to the birth and the life after. But from a System standpoint, this would be Pro-Life, you’re looking at all the different things, and we could probably add more.

Then we talked about in that talk, I said what is the Pro-Choice movement, say? And we’ve said, “What would Pro-Choice really look like?” Well, first of all, we got to define what we mean by choice. For example, as I’ll share with you shortly, economics are really forcing the decision of many of the mothers to not have a child or have a child and is that really a choice?

So, it’s choice for just the bourgeois women or is it for all women? Very, very, very important question because choice means Pro-Choice means you actually have a choice. All right, and rich persons can be quote unquote Pro-Choice, but a porch person is really not making a choice, are they especially when you look at the stats 75 percent are poor or low income destitute. 39% of poor whites, 28% of poor blacks and 25% of that, if you work out the math are poor Hispanics, most of them are religiously affiliated, which means likely they have some backing which is against killing life.

Family size already had a child 60% of the child and most are six years old. They are not in their teens. So, when you really look at it, you can see how much income is key to this. Alright, so we have to ask again, are these Pro-Choice people are so fighting hard? Shouldn’t they really be fighting for choice? If they’re Pro-Choice, okay, that was a question, which means you’d have to overcome these significant issues. And then we talked about if people are Pro-Choice?

Well, they should also be supporting the choice of what you put on or in your body. Well, many of the Pro-Choice people were absolutely fine. With everyone being forced vaccinated, if you remember that, that was absolutely fine with the Pro-Choice. They were absolutely fine with government mandates on masks. They wanted people to be forced to put stuff on their body and in their body. Let’s not forget that. And that was just a year ago, the Pro-Choice people, most of them have no regard for people being able to choose how to protect themselves guns or no guns.

And most of the Pro-Choice people want everyone to go to public schools, many of them are wealthy enough they can send their kids to private schools. So, the Pro-Choice movement really comes down to women should have the Right to Abort, My Body, My Choice, but sort of My body, My Choice, except when you’re talking about vaccines and masks. All right. So that’s Pro-Choice. And what we discussed in that conversation that we had was that neither the Pro-Choice movement.

But we then discuss, if we really want to talk about Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, or if these labels are being promoted, what are the root causes? And we went into doing a detailed scientific systems analysis and we said, look, when you really look at this, no one is discussing in either of this conversation on sort of Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Income Inequality.

We’re not discussing the Two American Pies that had been created over the last 50 years, we’re not talking about the lack of infrastructure that’s in this country, we’re not talking about these children are being denied clean air, clean food, clean water for all, promote neither Pro-Choice or Pro-Life movement, really bring this up in the discourse. We’re not talking about the destruction of the water system, the healthcare system, the transportation systems.

And we’re not talking about the lack of Real Systems Education, find the Real Problem and Solutions. And what we are doing is giving these labels Pro-, Anti-, Left, Right, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, which are really leading to narratives, for Working People to fight among each other. And that’s what’s happening right now, in Real-time.

Once again, those in power have everyone fighting against each other. And it’s fundamentally we talked about distracting Working People from uniting and forging a Bottoms-up movement. And finally, it’s distracting Working People forgetting they’re being robbed. And we talked about these buckets, they put people in. The Establishment loves to have people in the Left Wing, the Right Wing, Becoming Apathetic and Isolationist, or people taking guns and going to schools and shooting people, they love people being in these buckets.

They want people on the Left, Pro-Choice people on the Right, quote unquote, “Pro-Life” fighting among each other, like it’s happening. And they surely definitely want people just checking out and just putting their head in the sand. And they love it when a young kid who’s 18 or 17, goes picks up a gun and shoots people because they can use this domestic terrorist to shut down Free Speech. And for people the Right to Protect themselves. They do not want people building a Bottoms-up movement.

So, when we talked about what is the Path Forward, we gave people the example of what really occurred in the 1900s when people rose up in these movements, Women fighting for Labor rights, and it was these movements that really led to this where Infrastructure got built. Elimination of child labor. Okay, water systems, which really lead for example, to the lowering of infectious diseases, which is by the way, we teach this in our course to everyone.

And everyone should get off their butts and take this course, if you’re serious about truly going Beyond Left and Right. Long before the measles vaccine came, 99% of measles infant mortality was wiped up but that was because of these movements, Bottoms-up Working-class movements which resulted in Infrastructure. And during this period, 1940 to 1970, those movements resulted in Working People striking and fighting, which led to the American Pie growing. As GDP grew, so did the American Pie once people stop fighting, and we’ll talk more about this, how we got here, the American Pie split into little crumbs for working people.

And a Big Apple Pie for the 1%, for the doofuses is like, Elon Musk, and the doofuses is like Jeff Bezos, okay, who frankly haven’t created anything, most of what they did was stolen from elsewhere. So, during this period, GDP has grown, but it has only helped a few and not the rest of it. And this is not in the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice conversation.

That’s what we talked about. And we gave by way of example, during this period, 52 million strikes, 50 new 2 million workers participated in 11 million strikes when everyone’s income grew. And during this period, very few strikes, very few workers on the ground fighting when everyone’s income got destroyed. Okay. So that’s what we talked about.

All right, and we ask the question, “Are people ready to Think?” Do people really want to think, or do people want to be getting into this Pro-Choice/Pro-Life? Hypocritical nonsense when neither the Pro-Life people are Pro-Life or neither the Pro-Choice? People are Pro-Choice. And I was talking to one of our panelists today and he said, “I’m just so sick and tired of this Pro-Life/Pro-Choice stuff.” And he’s a very devout Catholic, okay.

So, we also have, so let me introduce our panelists. We have Suresh. Suresh is out of New York, originally from India. We have Crystal comes from a background of Korean American, and is an Entrepreneur. Suresh is an IT person, Ken is an esthetician. And Ken is out in Boston, Emily’s down in Tennessee, she’s a traveling Nurse, John is a Videographer, a devout Catholic, and we have Jill Jones, who is a Mother who is not showing her picture because she’s taking care of her child right now while she’s on top of this. So, we have three women, three men, and we’ll have a conversation.

So, I want to and then by the way, we will be opening our phone line shortly so you guys can call in. But I want to. And by the way, all of the people on the call our Truth, Freedom and Health(R) Warrior-Scholars, each one of them has gone through our training program. So, what you’re going to hear tonight is a very Systems perspective Beyond Left and Right and hopefully, it’ll inspire all of you to get involved for you guys to also get trained.

Okay, so let’s start with Ken Fielding. Ken, what are the thoughts you have to share about this conversation? Let me unmute. Go ahead, Ken.

Kenneth: I mean, I think the biggest thing is, people seem to be getting stuck in like a reductionist sort of mode, and focusing just on certain issues of the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice. Discussion, I guess, is the best way to put it.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay, so you’re saying people just get lost in the Pro-Life and we’re not discussing these bigger things.

Ken: Right.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay. So, let’s go over to let’s bring on Crystal. Crystal, some initial observations from reviewing last week’s discussion Go ahead Crystal. You have to unmute yourself. Yep, go ahead.

Crystal: Yeah, I agree with Kenneth. I think there’s a lot of things that aren’t being spoken of that you just went through on your PowerPoint very clearly. That helps bring some context to the discussion so that we’re not being labeled with very, you know, a narrative to a definition, to a word that’s being made for people. And people that I would never think would jump on a bandwagon either way, are feeling pressure to look at the situation and say, “Well, what side am I on?” So, they feel like they have to put themselves in a bucket almost, it seems like

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, Crystal So you were saying I mean, you sort of inspired having this You said that right after this court ruling you were getting all these crazy emails, right? What was that experience like for you as a you know, I mean, you’re a mother, you have a child and you saw this, what you call nonsense occurring, right? So, can you share with us that experience?

Crystal: It actually reminded me of a video I had seen of you when you were on the campaign trail, and a pastor had asked you a question, and you brought up a lot of topics. And I said, Wow, those are things that I’ve always wondered about, but wasn’t able to articulate. And you brought a lot of good points up. And so I really appreciated that, and which is why I brought it up.

So when I see people that I, I would think, you know, normally wouldn’t talk on such a topic with such conviction, feeling like they have to choose one of those two sides, like you have to either be, you know, for choice or you have to be for life, I don’t see why we can’t be for both, and redefine some of these “labels,” if you will. So, I feel like that’s kind of a discussion, you’re opening up for people. And I had some good conversations with Jill, who’s now on the call, last night about some of these topics as well. But I think maybe I’ll wait for that.

Dr.SHIVA: Go to you and Jill, they’ll be good to share. Let’s go to John Medlar. John, tell us your perspective on this.

John: Well, as you know, as you’ve said, I’m a very, very Catholic person. So, it’s now no surprise to hear that I’m very much thrilled with the outcome of the Supreme Court that’s come down. But like you said, the, but like you said, Dr. Shiva, “there’s many other underlying issues, which contribute to the problem beyond simply should the ability to kill your child in the womb be a private medical decision? Or should it be something that we decry?”

And I would, and I would say, given, given the severity of the choice being made, even if you’re the even if you’re legally saying that, Oh, it should just be a private decision? Well, why are so many people being pushed towards such a horrible, horrible decision? You know, if you’re, if you’re Pro-Choice, shouldn’t we have better choices like, and if you’re and from, from my perspective, as the, as a, as a very, very Pro-Life person, I also agree with everything else you listed there, we should have all of those of those things.

In the Church, we would call that creating a “Culture of Life” to replace what we live in now, which is a “Culture of Death”. It’s a “Culture of Death”, in many ways, the fact that not only are so many people feeling driven to kill their kids in the womb, but they’re also, you know, there’s lead in the water and nobody cares. Human life in general is being treated as just something that we can just abuse and throw away in so many different ways.

Dr.SHIVA: So, John, you bring up an interesting point. I think, as I know, you’re a devout Catholic. I mean, this is an interesting question. I’m gonna ask, maybe it’s not an appropriate one. But maybe it isn’t. I’ll put myself out there. But I think, Christ would have considered all of these aspects Pro-Life, would you not?

John: Yeah, I think so too. And again, I think these are all part of what we talked about. I think these would all be in line with what we talked about in the church of creating a “Culture of Life” to replace the “Culture of Death”. You can’t have a “Culture of Life” without all of these things you just listed.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah. All right. That’s a very nice perspective, John. Thank you for providing that. Let’s go to Emily. Emily, Emily’s a traveling nurse, Emily’s has I mean, as a perspective, from a caretaker, Emily, so I’m sure you’ve had to deal with this guide, Emily.

Emily Cross: Hi, Dr. Shiva. Hi, everyone. My perspective is that it is a decision that every individual has to make themselves. But there is also an appropriate time as we learn in the Foundations of Systems that there is the right time to make the right decision for the biggest impact and to prevent further catastrophe.

And I think there is a very opportune time to make the decision whether you’re Pro-Life, or you’re Pro-Choice at that opportune time, because there’s plenty of time to think about it. Everyone, every female, most every female is born with their eggs that develop, so they have them their entire life. They have the opportunity to make that choice. There’s many other means of preventing conception from occurring.

That if you’re really Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, you should consider those decisions way ahead of time. If you don’t want to participate in being responsible for killing another human person. Because it is Scientific that Conception happens at the time both a living cell and a living sperm, an egg and a living sperm join.

And then the womb creates that structure and storage place for the nurturing of the embryo to actually develop into another full Human being. So, life I feel begins way beyond conception. It begins. It’s infinity really, when you really boil it down to a systems perspective, because both cell is living in another human being prior to conception.

Dr.SHIVA: Yes, great, Emily. And by the way, that’s Emily down in Tennessee, Emily’s a nurse and Emily’s perspective comes as a Nurse, someone who studied Biology, someone who studies Medicine.

Emily: The other input I would just like to add, having been a caregiver is that one simple decision made at a time of urgency, and not having a fore thought about it when you had plenty of time to think about it is a lifelong decision that women especially have to live with, and I’ve never as a caregiver, encountered a woman who didn’t regret that decision. And I’ve cared for many.

Dr.SHIVA: Yes, Emily, it’s interesting. You say that I think in the when I was on my campaign trail, I think this pastor asked me that, I had this whole thing, Pro-Life, and I said, I have not met a woman who, if they chose the path of abortion did not feel horrible. You know, it’s not like women who made those decisions feel great. So at least in my experience, but I think it’s an important point.

Emily: The money I think that our country spends on monetizing both the Adoption Agencies, the Abortion Clinics, fertility, and morning after pills should, that money should be spent for education way ahead of time, so that children have the opportunity to actually make informed and educated decisions and have a fully informed consent of the outcome of that decision. Both Pro-Life or Pro-Choice.

Dr.SHIVA: Great, Emily. Thank you. So, let’s go over to Suresh. Suresh, you come from a very different background. So why don’t you give us your perspective? And tell – you go ahead.

Suresh: Yeah, I have been watching a lot of discourse happening on social media, which is good. I see people getting mad at each other, which is what I want to focus on. Don’t let people divide us. We need to Unite. Let’s have a discourse. Let’s not get mad at each other. Let’s have an interconnection with each other, build relationships, learn from each other, educate each other.

So that’s how Truth will emerge. And health is not going to come out of a magic law or a magic exercise or diet. Or magic medicine. It’s a complex thing. So, it needs to be talked about. And people who want us divided are probably having a great laugh or having drinks and joining in laughing at us. Look how we have successfully divided people. But what I want to tell people is we need to Unite. We need to talk to each other, build relationships, build community. So that’s what I wanted to share.

Dr.SHIVA: All right, thanks, Suresh, I think Suresh point is, which is what we want to sort of get people in the discourse is, how does this discourse advance the interests of Working People? Or does it hurt the interests of Working People? How does people at each other’s throats?

Whatever side they’re on advanced the interests of Working People? And can we have a dialogue on the set to really understand what these labels mean? So, Crystal mentioned that Jill and her have had discussions. So, Jill, Jill is taking care of her child as she’s having this conversation. So, Jill, tell us sort of what Crystal and you discuss your perspective on this, Jill go ahead.

Jill: And we discussed many things. And I think one of the things is that we don’t see enough support for women to become mothers in general. For my children, every time I find myself with a child, my first thought was like, how are we going to provide for this child economically?

I didn’t have the first experience like yes, I’m so happy. The first thought has always been okay. Budgeting. And it’s pretty crazy that a woman has to first go to an analyzing her economic situation before she can experience the joy of having a life or think about anything else. But that’s always been the first thought for me. And I think that’s unfortunate. And I know I’m not alone in that. And so I think that on both sides, they want to have the woman to feel supported.

But whatever the conditions are that a woman seeks abortion, those conditions are never solved through the abortion, those conditions remain. And those are the conditions that you’ve listed that we need to really address and elevate people in general in order to eliminate those conditions so that people can actually have the choice.

And they can pursue family and they can pursue good quality of life, because we’re not allowed that in this current space. And it feels like it’s wrong to have a child. And that shouldn’t be a feeling that any woman experiences, we should be able to experience the joy first. And then you figure out the rest. And it’s not a crisis, though, for many, that’s what they experience.

And that’s the problem is this is a very emotionally triggering event. And there should be more love around the whole idea of bringing life or making your own determination of what you’re going to do. And that’s the problem is we’re not able to experience that basic joy because of all of the things that were thrown within this modern society of this Power, Profit, Control model that we’re stuck in right now.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, Jill, it’s interesting you say that? I don’t think if the, I don’t think there’s any discussion, I think the fundamental thing is there’s no discussion about the economics at all. And whether it’s biologically, right, you look at every, you know, women are probably having to by nature, care about security, right? Because they’re bringing your child and are there enough to feed the child with a child and have shelter all these very, very fundamental things.

And you look at the conditions today, young people can’t buy a home. There’s clearly a class war of sorts here. Elon Musk can have 10 kids, doesn’t have to think about it, his father owned a diamond, emerald mined, exploiting black people in South Africa, which is never talked about. So, he never has to think about how many kids he’s going to have, whether he’s going to have a kid or not, right?

But you have huge amounts of young people, millennials, they can’t even think about getting a house and for that matter, getting married and having a child because of the economics. So, I don’t see the Pro-Life or Pro-Choice people ever addressing that fundamental issue. So, I think what you’re bringing up is a very, very, you know, I think men probably cannot fully appreciate this, what a woman’s mind goes through, I’m gonna have this child am I going to have enough to take care of this kid.

So that’s why I think when you look at this, most men probably fully can’t understand this, that 75% of people are aborting or destitute or very poor. And you know, low income is really probably very poor, and poor is probably really, really poor, given the way they manipulate statistics. So, this, it’s, it’s pretty amazing that this is never in the discussion.

I find it amazing that none of the religious people really talk about this, or the Pro-Choice people talk about this. So, what I want to do is, does anyone have any other points to make, because I want to open up the phone lines, so we can take some calls. Any other points on what we covered?

John: Well, Dr. Shiva, you made the comment about how young people can’t even think about the afford to buy a home. And that goes into the fact that people in my generation and upcoming generations, Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Economically, economically, we’re screwed. We’re, we’re expected to basically take on massive amounts of college debt just to like, you know, just, you know, work at Starbucks or McDonald’s.

Dr.SHIVA: Right. And, John, I think, if you look at this graph here, no one talks about this graph, only our movement has talked about this during this period of 1940 to 1980, as people got on the streets, and then we had really Bottoms-up Labor movements, The American Pie here grew for everyone.

If I were to draw a graph, everyone’s wages went up as people fought. And as productivity improved. During this period, when the Republicans and Democrats worked to destroy Unions, and the Democrats took over Unions top-down, the Right Wing said if you said Working People Unite, or if you formed a Union, you must be a Communist. And “Workers Unite” meant Communism. That was taken advantage of but in the 50s, by the way, where the Democratic Party really took over, all the Unions top- down, and the Republican said, if you join unions, you must be a Communist.

And what happened during this period. During this period, we see only very few strikes, I mean, an order of magnitude 10 times, 10 to 15 times less strikes during this period. And this is when the American Pie split into two. During the last 50 years, in the last two years. 600 billionaires, you know, quadrupled their wealth to 2.3 trillion.

So, you have this one Big American Pie for point oh 1% And a little American Pie for the other 99% of people. In fact, if you’re making $50,000, today, you should be making around $100,000 – 120K. So, we have two American Pies, less Labor movement, more, you know, differences among people, these people probably have to think about, as Jill just said about having children, these people can have as many children as they want.

And many of these people here, the bourgeois liberal elite are the ones who are talking about Pro-Choice all day. Yeah, you can have the choice all day you want. But over here are Working People who are being decimated, and they’re the ones who actually have NO choice. So that’s our Analysis that we did. Our movement did that analysis to really bring a much more holistic view.

So, we get over, as Suresh said, Beyond people at each other’s throats. Because as you look at this graph, again, the establishment wants people fighting each other so that their pie grows. And the pie of Working People are fighting over Pro-Life/Pro-Choice, which terms really don’t mean much, as we just talked about their wages keep going down. And this is never talked about, the economics.

Dr.SHIVA: So, let me bring, I’m going to put up right now. And anyone’s welcome to call in and contribute, ask questions to any of the panelists. So, you can call in to 617-631-6874 and it’ll come right to my phone. And then we will take your call and we’ll listen to you. So, if anyone has a question or comment or wants to contribute, feel free to just call at 617-631-6874. So, we wait for your calls.

And we’ll continue. It can be whichever side you want, whether you just want to make an observation, etc. Yeah, Maria says, “Let’s come together”. JC Dennis says. “Call-in you all.” All right. So, this is a time for people whichever side you’re on, or if you don’t want to be on any side, if you want to support this, to let your voice be heard, because, as Suresh said, we want to have conversations. We do not want to have people feeling they have to be boxed in.

John: So, wait, Dr. Shiva, while we’re waiting for the first person. I’m actually very interested in Jason’s question here. What about the poorest people in the world? They still have children and raise them. Right. That’s a very interesting point. Because you have, like people in even poor, poor rural countries tend to have very large families.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, that’s a good, that’s a good point. Let’s talk about that. So, one of the things you see, I think you’re bringing up a very good point, John. So, one is Economic Infrastructure, right? The other is this Intangible Infrastructure. So, in India, for example, and this is going to change, mark my words – in India, there’s typically extended families, you when you have, I mean, you have your grandparents, they live in the same household, the parents if they’re going to work.

The parents because the grandparents are there don’t have to, they have daycare by the grandparents, the kids are taken care of by the grandparents. In the United States, we had the nuclearization of the family that took place, really post World War Two, which was really designed by the consumer-packaged goods companies.

So, make sure that the grandparents and grandpa, a mother or the grandparents got their washer and dryer, the father and mother got their washer and dryer, and the kid after the group got there, so you had three washers and dryers and three sold, right? The nuclear family did that.

There you didn’t have the sharing of many of these countries where people who are quote unquote, “poor”, right, and don’t have that infrastructure. They have this other community infrastructure. So anyway, someone’s calling in here from National City, California. Hi, who is this? Can you introduce yourself and ask your question or make your comment?

Maria: This is Maria Cannistra. Hi, I’m from Imperial Beach, California. And I’m a Warrior-Scholar with your Dr. Shiva Truth Freedom Health movement.

Dr.SHIVA: Yes, Maria, tell us what your question or comment is.

Angie: My comment I, the way I was brought up and what I do believe for Pro-Choice, but I have known to people in my life that one she did choose to have an abortion because of due to economics. And it was quite unfortunate. She did regret it later on. And she felt that that’s what she needed to do. And I knew someone else that actually had one as a form of birth control, which I do not agree with. So, that was my experience and I’ve always believed that if you make that decision and you get pregnant then I am for having the baby, if you’re able to.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah. I mean, I think the model and some of the most people who are even Pro-Abortion, they say it should be very rare in the rarest of circumstances to save, let’s say the Mother’s life.

John: They used to. The phrase was “safe, legal and rare”. Now, the most shocking thing about today’s discourse is it’s gone from at least on the Pro-Choice side. And I don’t think the Pro-Life side has moved that much. But it’s interesting how they’ve shifted the conversation from simply “safe, legal and rare” versus “banning abortions” to “banning abortions” versus “NO limitations” whatsoever.

You had the Governor of Virginia being like, “Well, if the baby was born alive, they’re no shall, the mother and the doctor will have a conversation about what to do next. It’ll be kept comfortable, but then we’ll come to a decision.” So very, very ghoulish, very ghoulish talk going on and then the “Shout your Abortion” people?

Jill: Yes. I think that that’s an issue too, is the shot the shout your abortion, but we don’t ever give the

Dr.SHIVA: What is Shout your Abortion, can you?

Jill: Yeah. So, what they do is they empower women to “Shout their Abortion”, so that they may take pride in their decision, and about owning it, taking ownership of that decision and being proud of it. But we don’t give any voice to the women who have suffered as a result of that abortion, these women’s voices are remained silent. If they regret their abortion, the Pro-Choice does not give them a space to speak.

And all the women who I have known who’ve experienced it, they have regret, and they have pain, and they have more problems post-abortion than pre-. So, where’s their space for them to be cared for? Where’s their voice? They’re not allowed to say, “Hey, I got an abortion. I regret it.” No, we only give the women who can “Shout their Abortion” with pride, the voice and I think that we need to lift up the voices of all the women, whether they are Pro or Pro- Choice or Pro-Life, because we need to hear the stories because so many women suffer. And for instance, a woman I knew

Dr.SHIVA: Hello, this is Dr. Shiva, we’ll bring you in shortly. Okay.

Jill: A woman that I knew was already married with children, and she couldn’t afford the next child. So, she chose to terminate that pregnancy. And she started the process, it was far along. So, it had to be days a day, more than one day process. They did induce labor and get it going. And she immediately regretted it, but it was too late.

And she cried, and she cried, and she cried. And she never got over that trauma, she ended up turning to substance abuse, her children were taken from her, they are raised by another family. And now one of her two children is currently missing as a teen. We have no idea where the Mother is, and we have no idea where one of the children is. And this is a result of her mental collapse as a result of that.

Basically, that forced Pro-Choice decision that she had to make, and why don’t we get to hear more of these stories? We need to care for these people, not silence them, but raise them up. All of them.

Dr.SHIVA: Thanks, Jill. I have Danny from Italy. Go ahead. Danny. What’s your question or comment? Go ahead, Danny.

Danny: Yes, I was following your show on the internet, about the abortion. And I just want to say I’m not Catholic and Buddhists. And killing somebody in an early, very early stage is just killing a bunch of cells. It’s not an individual, it’s nothing. So, I don’t know what the big deal is, I mean abortion is for your, for the mother, it’s she’s losing a child or something like that. But you know, first of all that many people in the world anyway and these days to have some children, it’s kind of bad because we World situation is not good at all.

And I don’t know, people are coming in to suffer more than having a happy life. And if it’s taking in the woman is basically raped and she does not want to have a child. I mean, she should be able to do it even up to two – three months. It doesn’t have to be immediately, but I understand that the remorse and everything else from you know the religious kind of stuff. It’s, it’s, it’s bad for a woman. But really, they don’t care. Anybody besides the child would be born, who is going to be born somewhere else? Yes, it has to be born.

Dr.SHIVA: So, Danny, thanks for your perspective. So just to summarize, Danny’s basically said he’s a Buddhist. Right? And in your view that there is, it’s just a bunch of cells, right? There is no life there. So, what’s the big deal?

Danny: And it says they are alive, but you know, they are cells.

Dr.SHIVA: Right. And what’s the big? (Danny: Don’t have anything?) Right. Right. But from your point, the cells, this is not a life form. It’s a cells. And, so there’s really no big deal. And, you know, there’s enough, there’s a lot of people in the world. So why should you know, with a woman should have the choice? Right. And that is sort of?

Yeah, so I think so I think what’s good about what you just shared as this is what you just articulated, is sort of the position of the I want to put it into the quote unquote, Pro-Choice movement, right? Which means not the Pro-Choice movement that we have said, if you were Pro-Choice, that you’re giving people choice for all the decisions.

I think one of the interesting things that I want to ask you, Danny is in a in a world where let’s say, the women, knowing it goes back to Jill’s comment, let’s say you had 100 women, and all women in that situation knew that if they had a child the child could get, they could get, you know, two years off to take care of the child. They could get all the food, education, all the infrastructure that a child needed, and could have excellent infrastructure. The question to you is, do you think the children and the woman would make the same decision?

Danny: I don’t know. Because I am not a woman. So, I don’t have any children. But I think that when a couple wants to have a child, they have to think how’s the child coming up? Is he going to be alright? Is he going to have some difficult problems, autistic or whatever? So, before having a child you have to think, but this, this phase, there are people just having sex, having sex with women, and then they leave the woman, and they don’t give a damn if there is a child that is going to be born or anything.

So, it’s only a matter of this. Like in Ukraine, there are a lot of Russia that are raping the Ukrainian women. And they don’t care. It’s, you know, it’s the word, it’s alive in the earth. It’s alive. And it’s, it’s getting annoying. We want these things. That’s why we have all these earthquakes, and people dying all the time. I mean, we have too many. So, I don’t know.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I think you’re bringing up some interesting theoretical point, you know, the concept of too many people on the earth. When I came here in 1970, this promoted the Malthusian idea that, you know, the population is increasing exponentially, and we don’t have enough food. The idea of Malthus, was, has been promoted for 100 years. And the issue is it’s unclear whether Malthus was right. Whether that’s in fact, even true. Some people have postulated the earth could actually sustain 100 billion people. No problem.

Danny: They can if they don’t have war. If the food and everything, it’s enough, or it’s enough for a lot of people here with the wars and everything, everything is going into greed. All the multinational companies are basically destroying the war, they’re destroying anything in the Amazon, they’re destroying now in Africa, and so they don’t care. They kill millions of people every day.

Dr.SHIVA: Right. So, I think, Danny, if you think about the point that you said, I think it goes back to services, where do we have common meeting ground? So, we don’t, because I think the point that we’re trying to make is that I did in the previous when you take this Pro-Life label and Pro-Choice.

You see it right now people fighting each other, and these are the same people who probably agree with you on both left sides, meaning there’s devastation for Working People. So, if you go back to what you said, I think the fundamental issue here is that people should be having a child is something that is a major decision. Right?

It shouldn’t be taken lightly. I think everyone here on whichever quote unquote, side there, I think John would agree with that. I think you would agree with that. Right. And I think everyone would agree with anything Jill articulated that as a mother, you know, when she had a child, it wasn’t like, Oh, my God, I’m gonna have a.

Danny: A reason before having a child.

Dr.SHIVA: Right?

Danny: Why do we want a child? You know, we’re going to be alright.

Dr.SHIVA: Right. So, I think that what I’m trying to say is the it’s, so if you want to, it should be very rare when people have abortions, because it should be a rare situation, right?

Emily: Right, if people would make the choice at the right time.

Dr.SHIVA: Right. And if you look at this data that I shared here, the case that you’re talking about, is only about four to 12% of people where this occurs, 4% are minors, and 12% are teens. That’s the case, the majority of people who are making the decision to have abortion, as you can see from the US graph here, are poor people who already have a child, it’s they already have an income, you know, they can’t sustain that child, the case that you’re talking about the people being raped, or Ukraine or all that, if you, it’s a very small subset here, very small. It’s below. It’s in this 4 to 12% range.

So, I think it’s not, I mean, in some ways, we don’t want to get into the lowercase Pro-Choice, Pro-Life discussion. I think from a System Standpoint, we want to have this discourse on what is the Real Issue here. And I think you’re sort of helping saying that it is a major decision. And probably both sides would agree that it is a major decision. But it’s a very small, relatively a very small minority where the situation takes place. Right? If you look at it, right, that’s the point.

Danny: I live in the United States. I mean, even in New York, California, and I lived in Pensacola, Florida. Now, I’m in Italy for other reasons. But in the States that she that a lot of people are they all these families, they have a bunch of kids, sometimes they have kids, out of the way out of the family, you know, the mother has to get from somebody else, and then they’re married, and they have another kid and so on.

And I see that all these kids are left by themselves, because I mean, a typical American family, the mother if she’s not going to cook, she’s just opening a can, or they go to McDonald’s for a burger or something like that. And all these kids are by themselves. School it’s not. It’s not teaching anything, because even the past two years, people have not been going to school. They were studying at home.

Dr.SHIVA: So anyway, so anyway, Danny, I think we have a bunch of other people. But I appreciate your point. But I think you wouldn’t disagree that economics is a Big, the elephant in the room. Right? That’s an important part of his decision. Okay. Great. Thanks, Danny. Thanks for calling in. So, let’s go and we have someone waiting here. Hi, where are you from? Please let us know where you’re from. Sorry for having to wait that long.

Gabriel: Hey, how’s it going? I’m from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay, what’s your name?

Gabriel: Gabriel. I’ve actually called you before I’ve talked to you before.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay, Go ahead, Gabriel.

Gabriel: Yeah, so I just wanted to say, like, from my perspective, like, you talked about system science, but I see in society that there’s kind of like a, like a minotaur in the maze. And it’s kind of confusing. One of them might be like the criminal element, maybe the police. But I think weaponize like the women have kind of been weaponized as well. My bigger issue is like the Second Amendment. That was a ruling that I cared about when I think about like, like, when I grew up, when I was going through college, like I had a girlfriend that I dated, and she was the sweetest girl, right?

And her IUD thing expired a little like a year earlier than we expected. And she ended up having an atopic pregnancy right. fallopian tube, you know, and basically, she had the abortion pill, which is kind of like a heavier duty at morning after pill. But I guess what I was gonna say is like, later on, she basically turned into like this Amber Heard So, lady, you know, woman, like a complete nightmare.

I mean, and pulleys like psycho like a huge liar, all that kind of stuff. Right? And do you really think about like, well, the abortion thing? How does it affect men? Like, like one? Would the abortion thing be as big of an issue today? If we had, if we didn’t have inflation, right, if we didn’t have a constantly devaluing dollar? And then two, would it be as big of a deal if there weren’t so many, you know, women, and even men, but you know.

I’m just saying, like, from a man’s point of view, if there weren’t as many women with all this psychological aberrancy going on, you know, I mean, where they’re basically going to use that legal system against you, you know, and it’s not like as in the past men would be the ones that would be primary custody over women, like they would get preference preferential custody.

Whereas today, the woman just like almost automatically gets it, even if she’s like a drug user or something, you know. So, with that being said, you know, I think they’ve turned, they’ve kind of weaponized women, they’ve kind of turned them into another Minotaur in the maze that people have to navigate. And then they’re thinking, well, should I want to be around.

So, I want to have all that go with it, because it got to the point where I was like, Oh, my God, if her mom was crazy, and she’s crazy, and her sister is crazy, what happens when I raise this kid? And then she turns out to be like, killing out puppies and shit like that? You know? I mean, like, I don’t even know, I’m trying to say. So.

Dr.SHIVA: I think what you’re saying is that the abortion situation has allowed people to use that also, in these relationships. Is that what you’re saying?

Gabriel: Well, I’m saying that, like, it’s a way out for men, and a way out from something that is imposed by the government onto them, for example, the fact that the woman will get custody, and then ramrod them through court, you know, like, take money from them, when they’re not even necessarily the best caretaker. And then you, but the thing is, the women are only acting that way, because they’ve had this like, society raises them to be like these psychos. You know, what I mean,

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah. And anyway, I think there’s two different issues here.

Gabriel: And then you have the economic issue and inflation, also created by the government. So, you basically have like, the judicial system, the psychological guarantees that are being created, and then you got the economic issue.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay, so let me just take some comments, Gabriel, but thank you for your observation and from others. Thank you. So, what do you guys think? Emily, Suresh, Jill. Jill, what this gentleman was just sharing.

Jill: I think it’s true to an extent that men do not have enough of a voice in this and that women do use abortions to abuse men and that’s never discussed either. There are women who manipulate, and they use their pregnancy or abortion to put their will over men and men are not allowed in this time and age to discuss what their perspective is. A lot of men want the child, and they don’t have a say in the woman get the abortion and they’re left in grief. And it destroys marriages. It destroys relationships and men do have a place in the conversation. For starters.

John: Flipside, you also have you also have men pressuring their girlfriends to get an abortion because they don’t want to be baby daddies. So, I think that there’s two sides of that coin, I would personally say, I would personally say just as I take a pretty harsh stand against abortion itself, I think we should ban dead deadbeat baby daddies and throw them in jail.

Emily: And to another point. And it’s the same point I have for women, there’s an appropriate time to make the decision to procreate. And there’s plenty of easy solutions to make that decision prior to conception. And there’s a right time to make the decision. If you want Pro-Life or Pro-Choice.

Jill: I agree you should know ahead of time before you’re engaged in what creates children. What your decision is. Those decisions made before you pursue a relationship, it’s not something that just happens. You don’t just step in a puddle of being pregnant, you know. You have to, there’s something that requires it. So, we should make these. We should think about this stuff ahead of time and be prepared because like you’re saying I agree. I think the choice is made far ahead of time.

John: So, Dr.SHIVA, you’re muted, sorry. Sorry.

Dr.SHIVA: Sorry, you can, no one heard me I just said, can you please make your comment and where you’re from, but sorry for having, having to make you wait, go ahead.

Debra: Okay. My name is Debra Lee, and I’m from Bozeman, Montana. And I just wanted to share that I was adopted when I was one day old. And now you changed 62 When abortion was not legal, and I am grateful to be alive today, and not aborted. And so just to remind people, there is the Adoption route. And I know there’s a lot of people that can’t conceive, and would love to have children and adopt children who can’t have them.

And as far as the Buddhist philosophy is, being able to be born again, you know, somewhere else. For those who believe in that, I believe that I was meant to be here at this particular time, with the, you know, the parents that I had with the people that are in my circumference of, you know, in this particular time.

Dr.SHIVA: Oops, I’m sorry, could you repeat that again, we just had we just started a new call.

Debra Lee: I am grateful to be alive today and not aborted.

Dr.SHIVA: Yep. All right. Thank you for that comment. Let me just bring in our next caller. Thank you very much for your comment and observation. Thank you. Thank you. Yep.

John: Let’s see. Just very quickly, that’s another Systems Issue that we need to fix. The Adoption System in this country is a total racket.

Dr.SHIVA: Hi, can you hold on one second, I’m gonna bring any shortly. Hold on. One second. We have people calling in, we’ll set up a better system. One second.

John: Excuse me, Dr.SHIVA, you’re muted.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so go ahead. We have someone from Gloucester. Go ahead. Okay.

Matt: My name is Matt. I’m a Warrior. And I believe that life begins at Conception. And I was listening to Danny. And he believed that it was just a clump of cells. And I’m glad I heard that because, you know, I believe that it begins at Conception. And if I’m wrong, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the DNA, isn’t that implanted right at Conception? Human DNA?

Dr.SHIVA: Well, Yeah, so there have been hundreds of papers written by, you know, Scientists on either side, you know, when the sperm hits the ovum, within about two to three days, you know, depending on where you want to look at it, there’s the epithelial forms, and you literally have a being that is independent of the other being, which is a mother.

So, it is just a material, Biological Fact, there is another being there. Now, so it’s not just a clump of cells, because once this other structure forms, it is an independent living life form that is independent, and obviously, it’s got, unless it has reptilian DNA or some other DNA, it is a Human DNA. It is a Human Life form. And it’s at a particular stage.

So, I have to disagree, unfortunately, with that, but this is a point we can get into this dialectics. Right? But I think the conversation by the way, thank you. I’m going to take the next caller here but thank you for your question. Hi, we have someone from Ontario, Canada, please go. What do you have to please turn off the background noise?

Angie: There the sound is off. Okay, go ahead. Who

Dr.SHIVA: Are you? Where are you from?

Angie: My name is Angie, I am in Ontario, Oregon.

Dr.SHIVA: Hi, Angie, go ahead.

Angie: Well, I would like to make a comment to him about the Pro-Life of course, my religion I’m very Pro-Life that that that goes out the window. I’m talking about System Science. If they can apply that to this there would be no argument with it and make sure that the society that is regressing and not progressing, doesn’t want to be a baby factor.

He doesn’t want to go out and sell her body type thing. Use the System Science to develop a System that handles this. And then Pro-Life, you have a couple, and they have to face the fact that that baby they want so bad has to be aborted or the wife dies. There are artificial wombs now, medical has been advanced, that child can be saved. Why can they not use System Science and develop a System? A program that can blend Pro-Life. And Pro-Abortion.

Dr.SHIVA: That’s an interesting question. Great question. So

Angie: It would involve morals, laws, and etc. I mean, it’s a complicated one, but it can be done.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I think what was your name again? And are you a Truth Freedom Health warrior also?

Angie: That would also enter the economics. I can’t afford the $100.

Dr.SHIVA: Oh, okay. So, you should call us. We do scholarships to let us call us. Okay, we’ll help you out with that. We don’t want money to be.

Angie: I’m studying nutrition. Okay, how to become a Nutritional Consultant. So, I learned a lot from Dr. Shiva.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so just send an email. Or you can call me after this call, because this number comes to me, and we’ll figure out a way to help you.

Angie: That would be fantastic. And you can help me. I’m not really good at wording. Help me in wording this question. But this comment?

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so I think what you’re saying is a very interesting question. What I think you’re saying is, okay, I think if we take a Systems Approach, and we’re committed to bringing together Working People, so there are Technologies coming, that are, will allow, probably, I mean, if you look at the Neonatal Technology, that industry is growing explosively, they’re able to keep babies alive. At very, very younger ages.

Angie: One that I looked into, because

Dr.SHIVA: Hold on one second, hold on one second. One second, on one second. All right, Honolulu, just hold one second, I’ll bring you in, okay, hold on.

Angie: I feel for them. Both of their bodies, and that is their baby. She does not have to carry it because she doesn’t have a womb anymore. It is an artificial womb that she actually wears.

Dr.SHIVA: I see, I see, very cool. Well, I think you’re bringing up an interesting thing. Technology sometimes solves these human dialectics in ways we never knew. Right? Like communication. So, I think the question is, if a new type of technology comes – that, look, what’s happening with neonatal, what I wanted to finish up this comment is, I met a Neonatologist down in Florida. And he was saying it’s one of the fastest growing industries because it’s, and he was saying it’s very lucrative for him.

Because they have figured out how to keep a kid alive, even at I think like eight weeks or I mean, something amazing, from the time conception takes place. So, that date is going to move more and more and more. So, what happens when a child can be kept alive at any point after conception?

Now, there is no reason not, you can’t say, well, I can’t keep you know, because there is a way to keep the child alive at any point in that timeline. And then it comes down to the economics because let’s say you have people just randomly having children without planning. And then the Systems allow the child to be born, who will take care of the child, will the economics be there with the child of healthcare, education, etc. Right. That becomes a much more fundamental questions, but thank you, I’m going to take someone else. Thank you for your observation.

Angie: Yes, thank you.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, and call me and I’ll help you out. Thank you. Hi, we have someone from Honolulu, Hawaii. Before I go to that, hold on. Who’s calling? Hello,

Keola: Hi. Can you hear me Dr.SHIVA?

Dr.SHIVA: Yes. Who is this? Who is this?

Keola: I’m calling from Hawaii

Dr.SHIVA: Okay. Can you hold on one second before? Does anyone have any thoughts about what the woman from Ontario said? Emily, you’re a nurse, you deal with all sorts of interesting equipment of situations.

Emily: Well, I mean, they are doing uterine transplants now, and there is the, such thing as having a surrogate mother where they do the in vitro fertilization, and the surrogate mother carries it for the couple. And it is their own child. I mean, that goes on every day. They’re single women who have implanted and use sperm donors. So, I mean, it’s not that you can’t have a child only through conception of physical sex.

That’s been going on for years. It’s just that you’re making that responsible decision when you make that choice to have in vitro fertilization, use a surrogate mother or have a uterine transplant and continue to conceive on your own. That’s a medical decision that couples make responsibly to raise up that child and be responsible for raising it.

Dr.SHIVA: Anyone else?

John: By the way? Emily, I just had a question for you because you might, because since you were talking about you might know this better than I do. But in in vitro fertilization, isn’t it the case that they take a somewhat shotgun approach, where they try to fertilize multiple eggs and then pick one, two and plant them? Throw the others away?

Emily: Yeah.

John: I’m sorry. Did you say yes or no?

Emily: Yes, they do.

John: Yeah. So that’s why…

Emily: They don’t always take and get fertilized and start division.

Dr.SHIVA: So, let’s go ahead and also, John people, John, just wait. Alright, go ahead. So, we have someone from Hawaii, please. Make your comment in question. We’ll have different people who haven’t spoken at the roundtable. Also ask ahead.

Keola: Thanks, Dr. Shiva. I just wanted to address the one fellow who said it was just a clump of cells and the gal who addressed that speaks to your Systems Thinking in that, in that Reductionist thinking, or looking at just one point, instead of understanding the System involved in creating a life, the values for individuals share regarding life, the responsibility involved, and the System that we live in. And it makes it possible to support and take care of another life from conception. That’s all I wanted to share.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so you’re bringing up a very nice point. So, I think the question here is that I think this is where we started from, and I want to have Ken make his points. Ken and Suresh, you guys have been pretty quiet. But if we can go back to the entire discussion, is that we want to take this whole Systems Approach, right?

What occurred before the 10 years, 20 years before the child was conceived? And what happens 80 years after? So, Suresh, do you have any points and I’m going to bring the next person, thank you very much. Very important observation. Go ahead, Suresh.

Suresh: I wanted to address the first, I think the first caller who said, I was from Italy, and was Buddhist. It was a very disturbing statement, I heard like, the child is just going to suffer. So, it’s just okay to kill it. I mean, I think Buddha said, life is suffering. And he said, like, for example, you’re not going to be healthy forever, you’re gonna get sick, you’re gonna become weak, and you’re gonna die.

So just because life is gonna be suffering. That is a very bad excuse to just kill somebody. And I also remember an article from 10 years ago, they said, you need two Earths to support the population that we have right now. I think that’s how they got me from not having kids. So, I think that’s when I decided, okay, we have too much population.

But yeah, the comment and the other person who calls it, who was born in 1962, and said she was thankful to be born here. So that’s what we need, we need to create an Infrastructure, an environment where people can thrive, they can realize their full potential realize, okay, life is suffering, but we need to give them tools, we need to cultivate them, we need to provide infrastructure where they can realize their full potential to be a Human.

Like the person said, I’m so happy, I was not aborted, like this. She said, I have a purpose in life. So that’s what we need to create, we need to come together, we need to unite, we have to work on Infrastructure, we have to create an environment where any kid thinks that I can innovate, I can become any person I want, I can drive my destiny. That is what we need to focus on.

The idea that, okay, life is, a child is going to suffer, so let’s just kill it. We should take that option away from people, we should create an environment where anybody can thrive, anybody can become what they want. And this idea that, like you came from the periphery, you did not come from the center. So, any kid should know that, okay. I can innovate, I can do anything in my life. So, we need to create such an environment. We need to build infrastructure, that’s what I wanted to add.

Jill: Those are good points. I also think.

Dr.SHIVA: I’m sorry, I just wanted to make this one point to Suresh I think what’s happened is in the United States, this Left/Right narrative has basically said oh, the Left owns the concept of giving basic needs to people you know, they’re fighting to make sure people have basic needs. That’s the left issue. and the right is the one that is about making sure security happens, right, the family and you know, like the right to bear arms all that.

And the reality is you can actually stand for both. And this is this bullshit that’s happened over the years. So, the reality is saying that you want basic needs is not a left- or right-wing issue. But the right wingers get brainwashed as Republicans, oh, well, you know, everyone should be able to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. So, they just aren’t this brainwashing.

But, you know, we have roads, we have the postal mail system, we have some basic infrastructure, which should include education, why should a kid have a birth lottery, he’s born into a certain family, and he gets to go to the best private clubs and have tennis and the best organic foods and the other kid has to live in the ghettos. Right? Something doesn’t never felt right about that.

And that’s not a left or Right issue. But for some reason, it’s been made a Left issue, if you want basic infrastructure and equality for all, it’s not, it’s a Human thing. Right. And then the Right Wing issue, which has been apparently owned by the Right, which they don’t own, you know, security, the right for you to be able to protect your family, you know, which has been an age old thing that goes back 10s of 1000s of years, whether it be a gun, or a spear, or something to not go in and rampantly shoot people that’s, that is not a Right Wing issue.

So, we’ve created these very False Divisions. That’s why we wanted to have this conversation today. It’s Beyond Pro- Life, some, one group bones and Pro-Choice. Everyone I think, wants Pro- Life and everyone wants Pro-Choice. So, let’s bring this person in. I’m sorry, go ahead, please introduce yourself, and where are you? Where are you from? And then Emily, who had a comment, go ahead.

Andy: Andy, I’m from Pennsylvania,

Dr.SHIVA: Yes, Andy, go ahead.

Andy: Basically, I have some points. I just want to talk about the founder of Planned Parenthood, which she was supposed to be an eugenist as well. And she basically was aiming at black people, you know, to eliminate and to bring down the population of blacks. By doing this, this whole bunch of stuff, eugenics, in terms of vaccines and abortion as well. So that, you know, that plays a big part of the abortion aspect to it, as eugenics is bringing down the population. That’s one point.

And the second point is, in terms of women, you know, on their Health, just the process on the abortion is insane, right? They stick a machine, you know, in the private parts. And basically, it’s, you know, they use these machines, and it’s like a suction machine, and you suck the fetus out of the other woman’s uterus, which is insane, correct. And I just want to get your guys’ perspective on it, maybe you can elaborate more on what I just mentioned.

Dr.SHIVA: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. Thanks for sharing your observation. So, who wants to talk about that? Ken. Ken, you have anything. You’ve been quiet? Want to make sure. Ken, go ahead.

Ken: I mean, I agree, I do feel like it’s a very barbaric procedure.

Emily: It doesn’t, it doesn’t just pose risk for the infant, it poses risk for the mother receiving the abortion as well, both physically and emotionally. And that is also a risk that they’re taking, when they sign to consent to an abortion, they’re consenting to the risk involved for their own life, not just their infant’s life.

Jill: Yeah, it’s a very harmful procedure, it increases your risk for cancer, for a number of problems. So, it’s not there’s no such thing as a safe abortion is it is very violent, and it always results in the loss of life. And I think it’s very important that we define, as Biology has, that we, you know, it’s not a clump of cells, it is a life you are terminating that life, whether you like it or not, and that needs to be just plain and simple to understand. And it is true that Margaret Sanger was very racist, and that they target black neighborhoods with these clinics.

And there is a Real Racism that is happening that encourages these women basically to not want to keep their children and that is wrong. There is a racism there. I think that should be also addressed. Is that where it originated and maybe now it’s everyone’s using it, but this was a targeted demographic and that we need to recognize that.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I mean, I think I just wanted to bring this up before but let me just show a couple. And again, this is to go again, our goal in having this conversation is take a Systems Approach to go Beyond the Pro-Life Pro-Choice dialectic which rips people apart. But I just wanted to share this one. This is at Princeton University. This is a list compiled here.

This is all the Research Papers, which illustrate that a new embryo starting, the starting point, human life comes into existence with the formation of the one celled zygote, which means right after conception, and this is paper after paper after paper, and these are published in leading medical journals, okay, this, essentially, these papers, you know, essentially not only give a consensus, but basically the physics and the Biological Science, that life begins at conception.

So, there shouldn’t really even be an argument about this. And if certain people have the thing, that’s just a clump of cells, I think they basically need to go study, basically, Basic Biology 101 one on one. So that’s just to get over that. But that still doesn’t let the Pro-Life people off the hook. Okay, if you’re Pro-Life, you know, we have a lot of people in the Politics who are Pro-Life, but Politicians, but many of them are fine with Monsanto, polluting people, fine with Monsanto poisoning the world, fine with Monsanto, etc, etc, etc. The same guys who say they’re Pro-Life. So, I find this, that’s the Hypocrisy. Go ahead, John, or Jill or Crystal, there’s a couple of other people I just want to bring on, who we missed.

Jill: Well, I do also think that you know, someone who is conceived from rape, for instance, their life is still valuable. We shouldn’t, you know shun people from society because of their origin story. We also shouldn’t look down on people for being born into poverty, we shouldn’t shame women into abortion, because they don’t have the means. It’s, it’s, your walk of life is your walk of life, and you have no guarantee that you’re going to suddenly be very successful for getting an abortion or you’re going to be in poverty, for not getting abortion, these factors are not set in stone. So, we need to eliminate those. And we need to focus on the Systemic Issues as we’re trying to discuss that there is the opportunity for people to really have the choice of life and, you know, have that Pro-Choice, Pro-Life.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so let’s, Thank you, Jill. So, we have someone right from Lynn, Massachusetts, here. Go ahead. We have someone

Massachusetts Caller: I’m from Weymouth.

Dr.SHIVA: Oh, Weymouth. Okay, go ahead.

Massachusetts Caller: Yeah. My phone says Lynn. So, the whole abortion thing? Like, I’m definitely you know, I think the problem is the lack of taking care of families. Like, I feel like if we took care of families brought in more religion, more Christ, I think things would turn around.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting – you take, and I think a bunch of the people I’ve seen in the comments said in many of these poor countries, I mean, Suresh and I come from India. Okay. Yeah, India has about 1.3 billion people. But in India, there’s a huge, huge, I mean, by and large, yeah, I mean, fam, you have this extended family, families are involved. There’s a deep religious sense of reverence for life.

The poorest people have two or three kids, right. And they somehow figure out how to take care of those kids. So, yeah, so in, but I do know, you know, in the United States, that infrastructure has basically gone. It doesn’t really, it’s, it’s, you know, you know, when I used to do a lot of work with some very interesting company CEOs, many of the CEOs had kids, they never even saw the kids.

The kid gets born, the kid gets a nanny, the nanny takes care of the kid, the kid gets sent to boarding school, and the kids basically hate the parents, because they never had any life. Now, in a poor family, you’ll find the kids and the parents are very, very close, because they didn’t have a nanny, and this and that, and all those things. So, it’s a very interesting situation. But ultimately, you have some infrastructure where the kid can grow up that supports a kid. And then I mean,

Massachusetts Caller: I’m one of 11 kids. I said, Yeah, so I get what you’re saying.

Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so I think it’s the infrastructure. So, I think if we, in the United States, because you don’t have the family structure anymore, you don’t have extended families, it will become a very nuclear family. I would argue it’s much harder to be a mom and dad in the United States. In India, you have even these poor, you have this extended family, your grandparents or uncles and aunts that can help with the rearing of a child.

Even though it’s a poor country, in the United States, a mother and father have a child they really don’t have like friends are not going to take care of your kids that if you have aunts and uncles they probably live halfway around because you have this nuclear family which we don’t have a pretty good I don’t think we really thought through how much?

Massachusetts Caller: I don’t think we’ve had a nuclear family for probably 30 years, at least in this country.

Dr.SHIVA: Well, what I mean by it’d be like that. Yeah. But what I mean by this is there used to be the, you know, the extended family mother, the Grandpa, I’m sorry, the extended family. Yeah, yeah. And that was, in some ways, probably a much more natural model. The nuclear family is a very, very isolating model. It’s much harder to have a child in a nuclear family. But thank you for your comments.

Massachusetts Caller: All right. Are you running for governor?

Dr.SHIVA: Well, I explored it. And I came to the conclusion that it’s really important to build a Bottoms-up movement, that what’s more is, so to everyone listening, we’re building our movement for Truth Freedom Health®. A number of people said, Hey, Dr. Shiva. And the other thing is, you know, from what I uncovered, from the election systems, it made me recognize that I would be misleading people. Unless, you know, to a system that’s actually very corrupt.

From what I discovered, as you know, in the lawsuits that we won, and the ballot images got destroyed. It’s really Elections are Selections, particularly in Massachusetts. But you know, one area that’s an opportunity is the Write-In campaign. If people wanted to, people said, Oh, I’m going to Write you in, and I said, Okay, go for it. If you guys Write me in, and I, you know, people want it because a Write-In Vote is counted by Hand. It’s much fairer.

So, people have called me, and I basically said, Look, if you guys, you can do what you want. But it’s really an opportunity for a Bottoms-up movement now. So, we’re focusing on building our movement right now. It’s not that we’re leaving out Electoral Politics. But the most important thing is we need to build a movement for Truth, Freedom and Health®. So, wherever you are, you should become a Warrior. When we put up that sign, if you notice, I was running this banner, So, before we close, but Thank you.

Massachusetts Caller: Alright, yeah, I’m writing you in.

Dr.SHIVA: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, bye-bye, Be well. So why don’t I finish up to all of you listening, the reason we wanted to do this conversation today. We’ve been at it for about an hour and a half. So, I’m just going to finish up with our roundtable. The reason we wanted to do this was if you guys can wrap up what you thought about the call, and Suresh, Crystal John.

And you know what, you guys, you know, what the Truth Freedom Health® movement means to you, and how in this conversation, you think we should elevate the conversation and bring working people together. And you know, the principles you learn from the movement that you use, even in this discourse. Let me start with Ken, Go ahead, Ken. Ken, Are you there? Ken, maybe you can just talk about what you’ve learned from the Truth Freedom Health® movement and how you use it or even in this conversation.

Ken: Truth Freedom Health® movement is about System Science. And it just helps with everyday life, really. Figure things out and move past the dialectic of pro versus anti and right, Left versus Right.

Dr.SHIVA: Thanks again, let’s go to Crystal. Go ahead Crystal.

Crystal: Yeah, thanks for doing this today. Or tonight, Dr. Shiva, I liked that everybody who called in had something, you know, important to share, whether we didn’t agree with every little detail on that. But it’s a great start to actually have a conversation about moving Beyond Left & Right, what that actually means. People should be able to view this video and say, Okay, here’s a group of people talking about things that are not being discussed, that need to be discussed.

And, you know, maybe they should quit replicating whatever they’re seeing on the news, or whatever they’re seeing on Facebook, sharing memes and just reducing everything down to, you know, one little thing. And I know, we’ve talked about it many times already, Emily, and Jill and others, in the comments have said, you know, women, everybody probably knows at least one person that has had an abortion. And to say that that person felt good about it is probably inaccurate, to say the least.

And I don’t think I’ve always felt that something that was never being brought to the table is the trauma that the mother would be carrying afterwards. Jill shared a very important story about a friend of hers who did that and it broke up her entire family and she’s nowhere to be found. And she tried to, you know, numb herself with drugs because she felt so much guilt. And if we care about life, or we care about choice, we would not want someone to have to choose such an outcome, right?

But I’m sure the girl felt like she didn’t have a choice at some point or various points along that journey. And so, thanks for, you know, having this conversation with such enlightened people. The course has taught everybody on here to move beyond that dialectic and try to come up with ways to speak to her family, friends and co-workers about Real Issues that actually affect Working People and not fall into the buckets that they’ve made for us. Thanks, Dr. Shiva.

Dr.SHIVA: Thanks, for so people are saying what you said is very beautiful. So go ahead. John, what are your thoughts and how, you know, the System Science training the Truth Freedom Health® movement in terms of your perspective in this discourse.

John: I would like to point I would like to point out that the important interconnection of the, of the the infrastructure solutions that we’ve been talking about, and what you just talked about with that most recent caller with a necessity to build a Bottoms-up movement, because it’s clearly, it’s clear that the elites are not going to put in this very necessary infrastructure. It all has to do with whether you call it a “Bottoms-up movement”, or I call it a “Culture of Life”, if thought it fundamentally has to come from a, a Bottoms-up people self-organizing and doing it themselves, no one’s gonna come top-down and do it for us.

Dr.SHIVA: Yep. Great. And, Jill, go ahead.

Jill: Yeah, I think that System Science is very powerful in that, it allows you not to just reduce these issues to the single for this conversation. It’s not just about a fetus, it’s about much more, it’s about the Mother, it’s about the whole Society, the Infrastructure. Why we have this, you know, forced kind of need for abortion. It allows us to kind of expand the conversation and to break through that dialectic to understand the whole picture. And it also makes it very clear that we need to fight for our economic opportunities, and that there’s a Truth to things and we want Truth Freedom Health®.

And we do that by organizing, and we use the Systems Thinking so that we’re not going to be trapped into these limitations. And this movement is an Educational based movement. And we really see there is a lack of understanding and that people need to increase their understanding and elevate their consciousness, and that really is through Education. And this community is here to support anyone who wants that growth. And we’re going to continue to grow, we hope that everyone joins us.

Dr.SHIVA: Great, Suresh, what have you learned from the movement? And how do you apply it and I think you shared some very poignant things, but go ahead, and then we’ll finish up with Emily.

Suresh: So, today’s talk was really good. I like that people called in. The only thing, takeaway for me is that I would like to take away this option that, okay, let’s just kill this thing, because life is gonna be suffering for that person. And they’re not going to yield to anything, like I would like to Unite People.

So, we can create an infrastructure environment Infrastructure, where parents, our kids do not feel that they cannot realize their full potential. They cannot know what it means to be a Human. So, I would like to focus on that. And I would implore everybody that let’s Unite. Let’s work on taking this option away. Okay, life is going to be suffering, my kid is not going to have an Infrastructure to thrive. Let’s fight for the marginalized. Let’s not be divided. Let’s unite Beyond Black & White, Beyond Left & Right. Let’s build this movement.

Dr.SHIVA: Thanks, Suresh. And go ahead, Emily. Before we close out.

Emily: I think that Systems Science helps us to hear the other side in a very open discourse. So that there’s just that saying that, you know, you have to be silent to listen, they’re both spelt with the same letters. But when we listen to the other side’s opinions, it gives us the opportunity to hear them because it’s hard to speak over somebody and still listen at the same time.

And that’s how we learn, and grow is by listening and learning and Systems Science. It helps us, to give us that Infrastructure to look at all three forces that are universal principles of transport, conversion and storage to help us understand those basic principles when we’re making those difficult decisions in life. And on this topic, particularly, I think it’s very important that whoever is having to make that difficult, life changing decision, not only for yourself, but for another being is to have that opportunity for you to be able to speak your emotions, and have them verbalized, and heard before you have to make that decision.

Dr.SHIVA: Great. I think we have some very, very, nice comments. In closing, I want to thank everyone for participating. First, I want to thank our panelists who participated today, Suresh, Crystal, John, Emily, Ken, Jill Jones. I think that, when you take this approach of System Science, what emerges from this is something very interesting. We all really want to be Pro-Life. But we also want the Infrastructure. So, we can also support Pro-Choice, meaning we want to be able to really, Give Choice to Life.

So, this is not contradictory, we want to Give Full Choice to Life. And that’s what emerges out of this. These divisions is dialectic of, I’m Pro-Life. I’m Pro-Choice. And by the way, there’s a very, very thin Reductionist Models is really created to have people fighting. The elites love that. Meanwhile, Working People can really have both they can have, they can be fighting for Pro-Life and ensuring that we have Infrastructure so we can make choices. The kid can make it. It’s really, you really have a choice, right?

The reality is, I would argue 80% of the world doesn’t really have choice. Right? The choice is imposed on them. I’m sure the Elon Musk kids have choice, right, Jeff Bezos kids have choice, right? But not everyone has these choices. So, if we want to really be Pro-Life, we should fight for the choice for all people, which comes from Infrastructure, and Economic, you know, equality to some sense, basic equality, that’s what emerges. So, I think this is a very good conversation.

Dr.SHIVA: Again, once again, thanks. I’ll finish up by playing a video. And this video is what we call really our Truth Freedom Health® video, it really summarizes what our movement is about and we invite everyone to go to or And become a Warrior-Scholar. We need to educate the world. And that’s Suresh’s very poignant view.

That’s how, that’s what’s going to bring people together. And the Pro-Life, Pro-Choice debate has nothing to do with Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. It’s essentially so division, which needs, leads not to life nor to choice. So let me finish up this video. And thank you, everyone, I’ll come right back. But let’s finish up.

Dr.SHIVA: Alright, everyone, thank you. I hope everyone has a good night. Everyone should go to and join this incredible community. And we’ll have more of these events. Thank you, Emily. Thanks, John. Thanks, Jill. Thanks, Ken. Thanks, Suresh. Thanks, Crystal. And thanks to all those people who called in and shared their ideas. It’s not about agreeing with people. It’s about moving the conversation forward. So, we thank you.

Dr.SHIVA: Be well. Be the light. Thank you very much. Thank you again, everyone. Have a good night.

It’s time we move beyond the Left vs. Right, Republican vs. Democrat. It’s time YOU learn how to apply a systems approach to get the Truth Freedom Health you need and deserve. Become a Truth Freedom Health® Warrior.

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Course registration includes access to his LIVE Monday training, access to the Your Body, Your System tool, four (4) eBooks including the bestselling System and Revolution, access to the Systems Health portal and communications tools – independent of Big Tech – including a forum and social media for you to build community with other Truth Freedom Health Warriors.

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