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- Dr.SHIVA Ayyadurai, MIT PhD – Inventor of Email, Systems Scientist, engineer, educator – has a conversation with Will Love of the Out In New Jersey Magazine about Dr. Shiva’s growing up in New Jersey and the innovations he has created.
- Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai invented the world’s first Email system as a fourteen year old boy working as a research fellow at what is now known as Rutgers Medical School when he he was challenged to convert every feature of the physical paper-based inter-office memo system into an electronic equivalent software program, a task that many experts at the time thought was impossible.
- Dr. Shiva wrote fifty-thousand lines of code to create the world’s first Email system, designed to recreate every feature of the. interoffice mail system used by secretaries: including inboxes, outboxes, to, from, subject, carbon copy (CC), blind carbon copy (BCC), attachments, etc.
- The fact that Dr. Shiva invented email BEFORE he came to MIT, while he was still living and working in the working-class crime-ridden neighborhoods of Newark New Jersey, demonstrates the falsity of the establishment narrative that all innovation must only come out of elite ivory tower institutions like Harvard, MIT, or the Military-Industrial-Complex.
- The story of Dr. Shiva’s invention of email is especially important to future young innovators, because it demonstrates that true innovation can come from anywhere, even the most unexpected places. It is not up to the ivory tower elite institutions to restrict who is “allowed” to innovate.
- Dr. Shiva’s invention CytoSolve® allows the mathematical modeling of trillions of combinations of compounds on diseases.
- Dr. Shiva discusses the immune system and how the elites use sophisticated mass-marketing to distract from real medical solutions to fake solutions from which they can profit: from the COVID pandemic and the jabs, to the AIDS scare decades ago.
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Dr.SHIVA: Hello, everyone, this is Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai. I hope everyone’s having a good evening. So I have a very nice interview planned with Will Love from Out in New Jersey magazine. I’m going to be talking about innovation. From the invention of email, which I did when I was a 14 year old to now with CytoSolve®, where we’re revolutionizing medicine.
But I thought it’d be great to do this interview with a magazine out of my hometown in New Jersey, because so you’ll understand some of the context, we’ll probably have a very vibrant conversation. So I’m going to bring in Will. By the way, we’ll also be introducing people to our Innovation Institute.
I’ll be sharing with people Innovation Core, which I’ll talk about, which is the institute that we’ve created, which has been around, believe it or not, for almost 10 years, but we have a program, that we can also support young people, we have scholarships available for 14 to 18 year old kids, and I’ll talk about that, but in many ways is to commemorate the opportunity I was given back in New Jersey when I was 14 to give an infrastructure to create email, but let me bring in well, right here. Will, are you there?
Will: Yeah.Thank you. Very good. I’m doing well. It’s a pleasure to speak with you. I’ve been following your work for a bit. And I think you would be a very interesting guest for the magazine. And you know, there’s a lot I want to dive into.
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, so let’s just start.
Okay, so, before I get on to a plethora of subjects I’m planning to speak about, I want to know about growing up in New Jersey. So I was intrigued to learn that so what was life like growing up in New Jersey? And how, you know, it led to your professional career?
Dr.SHIVA: Yes, so, you know, it’s interesting, well, a lot of people don’t really know, uh, whenever they have images of New Jersey, they just sort of get this idea that it’s like some garbage place, you know, that’s that the medium promotes that. But New Jersey is quite an interesting place. First of all, it has incredible beaches down in South Jersey, but it’s actually a very, very diverse place, but it’s really a center of innovation.
A lot of colleges are there. And, you know, for me, I moved my parents literally when we left India on my seventh birthday on December 2, we landed in New Jersey on December 5, three days later, and we settled initially in Paterson, New Jersey. Paterson, New Jersey is still considered one of the poorest Cities in the United States. And I began as a 14 year old kid working in Newark, New Jersey, as a research scientist.
So within seven years, my journey was coming to the United States. We settled in Paterson, New Jersey. And then we moved to a place called Clifton, and then to Parsippany, and then to Livingston. The reason I give those four towns, if you look at the zip codes of those four towns, they go from extremely poor, to one of the wealthiest which was Livingston, right?
Dr.SHIVA: My parents, whatever money they earned, they would just keep moving to the better school systems. Because in the Indian, you know, ethos, education is how you get free.
And that’s why I have this little thing running, saying Get Educated or Be Enslaved, this was sort of beaten into us that it was education that really freed you more than anything else. So New Jersey was a wonderful place for that. But most importantly, New Jersey, I grew up in working class neighborhoods.
And the lessons I learned were from every day, you know, teachers or, you know, I learned how to paint really well, apart from a Yugoslavian master painter, learned how to do landscaping from an immigrant from Italy, who was our, you know, landlord, had excellent public school teachers in 1970’s.
For that period of time, there were still some remnants where the teachers were basically getting paid pennies, most school teachers in New Jersey in the 1970s had like three jobs. My chemistry teacher who ended up winning the presidential award in chemistry, was a chemistry teacher.
And he was a contractor, and he was a carpenter. And he put two of his kids through school doing that. So New Jersey was very, very down to earth, everyday people from similar to where I came from India.
That’s what I was exposed to in New Jersey, but one of the most profound things was that the difference between Patterson and Livingston was quite stark, right, and you know, people look it up. Livingston, New Jersey is where Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner have their homes, okay. But Paterson, New Jersey is a very different place, you know, economically etc.
My journey sort of gained this experience of all these different sorts of economic classes, plus working class people who had a tremendous amount of integrity, but when I was 14, I got the opportunity to go work at New York University, actually was accepted. 40 students are accepted across the country to actually learn computer science in high school. And I was one of those kids, and my mom would drop me off in New Jersey at the Newark path station.
And as a 14 year old, I would take that train into the heart of Washington Square in New York. Now, if you know Washington Square in New York in 1978, it was just crime and drugs. As I would walk through, people try to sell you all sorts of things, you know.
I remember my first day in New York, I saw three guys smashing out of a jewelry store, they just stole something and the cops were running around. But that was the chaos between New Jersey and New York at that time. But my parents were pretty interesting.
I think most parents would not even let their kids out these days to do anything like that. But as a 14 year old, I was taking the train from New Jersey, right in the heart of New York. Interesting thing was when I was taking that train, there was this big black guy who was watching me. And he was concerned for me, and he ended up becoming my bodyguard and a very, very good family friend. Oh, wow. Yeah.
That was and he worked in a bronze factory, doing mold, moldings, you know, I mean, it was quite extraordinary. So here, I would go to NYU, and then he would take me to his factory. And I would see them literally pour like lightning molten bronze.
So it was a great, great place to grow up in. But after I finished that course, in NYU, I got a full time job at what is now known as Rutgers University in the heart of Newark, New Jersey. And because I had a very good independent studies teacher, she fought with the administration at the school and changed a rule.
This 14 year old kid could, while he was in high school, have a full time job as a research fellow in Newark. So it was quite incredible. And in that small medical college at that time in Newark, I was given the opportunity to use all sorts of computers.
I mean, most computers would be, you know, massive mainframes. And I started doing medical research on why babies were dying in their sleep. Because I had a deep interest in medicine growing up in India watching my grandmother who was a traditional healer.
I was writing algorithms. So you would call AI algorithms, pattern recognition algorithms, where if you could watch a baby’s sleep pattern of a baby, could you predict when its breathing would stop it’s called an apnea. That’s called SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome.
I was given this great opportunity as a young kid to write these algorithms. In fact, many years later, I presented a paper in Finland, and at the leading biomedical conference, but while it was at that university, if you’ve been to Newark, and you’ve been to Rutgers there, or if you were there in those days, most universities were very, very segregated on multiple levels, men and women had very different jobs, look differently, you know, very clear the rules, women could only those days have three jobs, it could be a nurse, they could be teacher, housewife, or what, or secretary. So in this medical school, every office, you know, was either the office of a scientist, a medical researcher or a doctor.
In those offices, they always had someone called a secretary. And those offices were 1000’s of offices, and they used to be connected by these pneumatic tubes. And they just have these little tubes that you would send around to send your mail around. Okay. Um, and so in those days, how communication took place, they didn’t really have the internet. They didn’t really have cell phones, they didn’t really have social media.
They had two things, the physical hardwired phone and something called the interoffice mail system. The interoffice mail system was a system where every secretary on their desktop had something called a typewriter, and something called paper and something called carbon paper and paper clips. And the inbox, a physical box, the outbox, the drafts folder, a big file Steelcase folder, so this was the Office desktop that the Secretary owned.
So, if you can just think about that, these were physical instruments. And every secretary had one of these desktops. And when communication needed to take place was typically initiated by a man who was a doctor or a medical researcher, a scientist in a white lab coat.
He would dictate a letter to the Secretary saying blah, blah, blah, take a note. Dear Dr. Blah, you know, here’s a resume of someone I’d like you to consider, right? And maybe he would say, you know, put a carbon copy to the HR person, blind carbon copy someone else, right.
And the person physically would do this. Take a piece of paper, start typing. If it was a carbon copy, you literally take the piece of paper, a piece of carbon paper, another piece of Paper and that was a CC, carbon copy.
Okay, you would then attach someone’s resume, you would put it in the drafts folder, the boss, your boss would come back and redline it, you would retype it, then it would go in the outbox, someone would pick it up, put it into one of these envelopes, put it in one of those pneumatic things that will get sent around. Or you may get stuff in the inbox. Or you may do registered mail, blind carbon copy.
All of these things are how the office worked. Now, I was asked to convert this entire system to the electronic form, which had never been done before on the planet Earth. And the doctors were very demeaning to the secretaries at that time, or the scientists, because those who used computers in those days were white men with lab coats. The concept of a secretary ever touching the keyboard was unheard of.
Because you need to know complex commands, you need to know computers. You know, in those days, you could send simple short text messages. That was about it. But that’s not email. Okay. So I was asked to convert this entire interoffice mail system to the electronic version.
I was quite excited, the doctors would come over to me and they’d say, why are you doing this? This is useless. You know, we’d just like to dictate to our secretaries, you’re going to make us all become secretaries now. So anyway, I wrote 50,000 lines of software code.
And I had to get every one of those features where the secretaries were going to leave their typewriter to go to the keyboard. The inbox had to be there, the outbox had to be there, the blind carbon, copy the to, the from, the subject, the CC registered mail, the attachments, everything you see today. Anyway, so I wrote 50,000 lines of code, named that system, a term that had also never been used in the English language called Email.
I came up with five characters because the operating system only allowed five characters. It was not an obvious term in 1978. And wrote the user’s manual for email, had everyone using it all over the university, for email.
When I came to MIT, I was accepted in 1981, the front page of MIT featured three kids, and I was one of them for inventing something of note. The president of MIT invited me to his home that year.
“And he said, ” You know, it’s too bad. The Supreme Court doesn’t recognise software patents.” You couldn’t patent software, the legislatures didn’t even know what software was, they thought it was written stuff. But they had changed the law in 1980, to allow you to use copyright law to protect software inventions.
The president of MIT told me that so I wrote away for the copyright. Notice I filled it out. My parents weren’t lawyers like Bill Gates, his parents. Yeah. And August 30 1982, I was issued the first United States Copyright recognising me as the inventor of email. So named it email, wrote all the code, and has any feature.
I invented email as a 14 year old kid. Now the problem was I never talked about it. Never came out of a closet with that, okay. It was only in 2011. When my mom was dying of a horrible disease. She in a beautiful suitcase had saved all of those artifacts, the code, the tapes, everything. And she presented that to me, and a professor at Emerson College looked at it and he said, Wow, you invented email.
He called his friend at Time Magazine, who wrote an article called The Man Who invented email, and it’s out there November 11 2011. No one said anything at that point, then the Smithsonian Museum contacted me. They were very excited.
I donated all my stuff to them for a big honoring ceremony. And on February 16 2012, an article written in The Washington Post said, Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai is very honored as the inventor of email.
Now, you would think this would be an occasion for celebration? Yeah. What happened was the white liberal, elite, academic professors who are the real racist, by the way. Who considered this like a new skull was found in Africa. How could this be? During the 35 years, I didn’t promote it. They had promoted a guy who looked like a nerd who actually didn’t invent email, he used the @ symbol to attach text to the bottom of a blog post.
He could talk about it, okay. A caveman version of Reddit. And that individual during those 30 years had been promoted by a missile defense company who had acquired the company that he worked at as the inventor of email where they use the @ logo because they were using that to, you know, win military contracts when they didn’t invent email.
So in this one at the Smithsonian, it was like a bomb went off. And the vitriol, the anger, the racism, the hatred, that how dare this dark skinned Indian guy, a 14 year old guy, ever claiming to have invented Email. I was called an asshole, a dick, and a fraud. While I was four degrees from MIT I invented many other things never even wanted fame.
And add, it would be interesting because the level of abuse I was teaching a class at MIT while running a company that I endured was unbelievable. People would make jokes. “Haha, you said you invented email Al Gore, or 1000s of calls came to MIT saying, How dare this guy say invented email.”
Why was this anger there when the facts are so obvious, it’s not even a controversy. You see people going on Wikipedia attacking my page etc. Anyway, it took four years for me to find a lawyer to sue the media company who called me a fraud.
And we ended up winning, we drove them into bankruptcy. And the important part of that is, the facts are so obvious. I named it email, and wrote all the code that has the copyright.
Now maybe if I was a white guy with blue eyes, and my name was Einstein, maybe that’s what it has to be. And blonde hair, this would be everywhere. And the level of discrimination here goes very deep.
It’s not only that I was a dark skinned Indian guy, but I did it when I was 14. I did it in Newark, New Jersey, before I came to MIT. But when I was at MIT and onward, I’m on the front page of many things have won many awards, because I have the MIT brand. But how dare this guy say that he invented email before he came to MIT? You see, this is a real issue.
Will: Well, it’s it. It seems like it boils down to business too.
Dr.SHIVA: it boils down to the fact I think you nailed it well, is that a multi billion dollar brand called Raytheon, which is right down the street over here, which is a missile defense company missile sales were tanking in 2007, they had bought another company to do cybersecurity. They needed that branding. So they had invented email.
You say that was their brand. And I think they’d made about $270 million. Just selling cyber. So imagine if you’re filing for a government contract and say, Oh, we’re the guys who invented email will be able to protect your email.
Will: It’s a no brainer.
Dr.SHIVA: It’s a no brainer for them.
Yeah. So yeah, it’s the Military-Industrial-Academic-Complex. The same thing happened to Philo Farnsworth, a 14 year old kid who invented TV.
It took him 60 years, he invented it on a small farm in Idaho, very similar conditions, a loving family, a mentor, and infrastructure, which is where real innovation comes from. Innovation does not come from the Military-Industrial-Academic-Complex. It comes from those three environments. And that’s what I had in New Jersey, a loving family, a mentor who took me in, and then I had access to some infrastructure in a small medical college.
So this is probably one of the most important things, you know, from a, if you want to really talk about a real discrimination, is the fact that we have made people think that you have to look and feel and go to these places, and then you’re a nerd and that you’re an innovator that you surely cannot invent email in Newark, New Jersey, you certainly could not do it as a 14 year old kid, you surely could not do it as a dark skinned immigrant in Newark. But surely Mozart can write symphonies.
That’s cool, a white guy who can write symphonies when he’s six. So there’s a lot of very interesting lessons. But the fundamental issue was that this was done outside of the bastions of the Military-Industrial-Complex.
And by the way, it was a Michigan mechanic who created the windshield wiper system, which is called automatic controls, and two MIT professors actually stole his invention. The case of Philo Farnsworth, as a young kid who invented TV, RCA came into his home, stole everything and started manufacturing because they had the capability. It took him 19 years to win that lawsuit.
And he only had one year of patent life left, he died and an alcoholic took 60 years for the United States Congress to now recognise if you go to the Congress, there’s a statue of him as the inventor of TV, but these are very profound stories, because I’ve had the opportunity to experience the innovation world before I came to MIT, and then also while at MIT, but my journey really started, you know, in New Jersey, I think that’s the most important thing. If it wasn’t for New Jersey, if it wasn’t for the conditions I had, I probably would not have, you know, done many other things. So that’s really the history and then I came to MIT, right? And went in and out did a bunch of degrees, but my interest was always in medicine.
So I’ve innovated, you know, I’ve written lots of papers and medicine and a lot of medical research. We just published a paper in the journal of cancers, where we have now created this technology that came out of my PhD called CytoSolve®. CytoSolve® is a revolutionary platform, probably equal or more important than email.
That will, that allows us to eliminate the need for animal testing. Use the computer to mathematically model diseases. And then using that, imagine modeling a disease on the computer then testing different medicines or herbs on the computer.
Will: That’s fascinating.
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah. So that’s what we’ve done.
In fact, we have a product called mV25™, which we were always helping other companies do. But two years ago, we said, why don’t we eat our own dog food. So we literally modeled all the molecular pathways of pain and inflammation, mathematically model that and went through trillions of combinations, until we discovered this.
And I made up if you want to hear about it, I’ll play a little ad for you on it. But that’ll give you an understanding of the power of CytoSolve®, the power, and what it can do. But all of that journey came from Newark, New Jersey, for me, where I was doing medical research, building a platform.
Will: I think it’s very innovative. And I give you kudos, because that’s a lot to deal with in terms of having something that you work so hard for essentially stolen from you, or at least robbed from you in terms of credit.
Yeah, I mean, look, it’s it. The reality is, they were never expecting me to fight back. They thought I would be a good Indian.
You see? And the thing that really bothered them in that entire exercise was why is this guy standing up? Because this is one of the areas of race, the real racism is taking people and putting them in little boxes?
Will: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s something I wanted to talk to you about too.
Dr.SHIVA: If you, if you are a blonde woman, and you’re attractive, then you must behave like this. If you’re an Indian guy, then you must tilt your head left to right, and be humble, and take it on the chin. If someone says you’re a fraud, you didn’t invent email, that’s okay.
You’re not supposed to defend. You’re supposed to be a Gandhi. You say, if you’re an African American, you’re supposed to behave like this.
Right? And so on. In order to be smart, you must have a beard and wear glasses and be hunched over and talk with a high nasal voice. And why do I say this? Because I used to literally see people when they came as freshmen at MIT, normal sounding people.
Within six months after being there, you would see these kids’ voices change, mannerisms change. Because some of these, quote unquote, nerd professors would talk like that, as though that was the etiquette for being intelligent. So almost like a casting call.
And here, I grew up in New Jersey, we were on division, you know, the number one division. I was a center halfback, soccer baseball, right? I pitched Chris Christie was our catcher, right, given the governor of New Jersey, but the concept of someone being an athlete and this and that that’s not supposed to be allowed. The media wants to pigeonhole everyone, keep you in that pigeon hole, whatever that may be.
And then if you stay in that pigeon hole, you’re good. So when I was at MIT, I won all these awards on the front page for inventing many things. But when I said email was invented in Newark, New Jersey, that throws a wrench in the MIT concept, right? Because that goes against the theory that you have to go to MIT.
And then you can be a great inventor, you know?
Will: Well, that’s what I was thinking all along, when you were telling the story was that MIT’s name wasn’t attached to your creation.
Dr.SHIVA: Exactly. Yeah. So what I ended up doing was about in 2012.
When I went through this journey, I realized there’s a lot of 14 to 18 year olds. In fact, I think that age is a period when there’s a lot of intelligence or radicalism or people because when you’re young, you don’t think anything’s not impossible. For example, in that medical college when I was creating that system, I found out many years later, one of the guys was attacking a guy called David Crocker.
I call him David Crock of shit. This guy, many years later, was attacking me. So he didn’t invent it by the way whenever they want to take away your credit.
They said, Oh, no one person can do that. It was done in collaboration bullshit. I actually did invent email single handedly.
Okay, there was no friggin collaboration. That’s if you’ll find out that’s one of the ways that the elites try to diminish someone. So anyway, when he was attacking me, he forgot in 1977 he had written an article which said at this time.
It basically said it is impossible to create the electronic version of the interoffice mail system. Okay, and we found that article, he freaked out. So you see, when you’re young, you don’t think anything’s impossible.
But these old white guys in lab coats thought, oh, creating email was impossible in 1977. Because I was doing so many, they were just like trying to send little telegraph messages. So that’s what’s important that – Several years ago, when I realize that there’s a lot of very smart kids out there, I created and everyone listening, if you have young kids, you may want to consider I created an organization called Innovation Corps, it’s a 501C3, I actually mentor eight to five to eight kids every year, I give them about $1,000. It’s not a lot. But people can go. It’s called Innovation Corps, InnovationCorps.org. and what I did, when I launched this, I went back to Newark, and I launched it there in New Jersey.
And what you see here is it’s a it’s a it’s a you can apply here. And the application process is pretty simple. We’re looking for young kids 14 through 18. Who act, they don’t have to be nerds working in a lab. But they have to talk about it. Did they create something? Did they actually get a customer? What problem did they solve? Or their direct competitors? You know, what’s the stage of the project that they’re in?
But my goal is to really find and support people who are actually taking risks? Do they take an idea? And did they actually even get one customer, even if the customer hated them, that’s okay. Because when you build something, and you get feedback, that’s when you learn.
It’s better off building something not perfect, but getting a customer. So that’s what we’re giving credit to. So anyone listening out there March, end of this month, March 31st 2022, is when the application ends, but it’s essentially, for anyone who wants to apply 14-18 year olds, and you get 1000 bucks, I will mentor you throughout the year.
And you get access to it. We also have a book called The Seven Secrets of Innovation. We also have a curriculum, that we have an online curriculum where we teach people what are the seven secrets of innovation.
But the bottom line is innovation is in everyone’s DNA, you don’t have to go to MIT, you don’t have to go to Stanford, you don’t have to go to these places. In fact, in retrospect, I realize that many of these large institutions actually are stealing kids from the public school systems, who worked their butts off and just putting their brand on it, you know. So it’s not like the universities really do a lot anymore.
You know, by the time kids come to university have already, you know, getting the best kids to work hard. Yeah. And they just give them their brand. If you know what I’m saying.
Will: No, it’s a business at the end of the day, because the grading into the university, as you know, an exceptional student, they’ve already worked for that. So they just, it’s almost like a barter situation, they need that University’s name, to get their career going. And the university needs them to get more students like them to attend.
So at the end of the day, I just feel like the whole higher education system is a business.
Dr.SHIVA: It is so what we’re trying to do is, you know, one of the key things we’re trying to do is, you know, we’ve On VAShiva.com, we’ve created an entire environment now, where our goal is to open people up to the opportunity that one of the most important things that anyone can learn in the world is what I call the Science of Systems. So there is a foundational education that comes even to me even before reading, writing, and arithmetic, that’s learning the Foundations of Systems. So what I’ve done is I’ve taken 50 years of knowledge, and creating systems to actually make it very, very accessible for anyone.
So if I go here, if people go to the website here VAShiva.com You’ll see there’s a bunch of videos here, one video called the Journey to Systems. Another video called why you must learn the science of systems, and then what you get as a part of the Truth Freedom Health® movement.
But one of the things we’re seeing is large wells, and these are just, I mean, all of these have been running. But we started these Institute’s so someone learns the science of systems, and then they can go join one of these Institute’s someone may be interested in open science, some of you interested in becoming a systems health educator whole alert, essentially learning a whole different way to look at the body as a system, or maybe they want to support election systems or innovation.
Or learn how to do complex art and visualization or become a member of the advanced Media Institute where they learn how to become a journalist on the ground or citizens training. So if you go to for example, the Open Science Institute, we are literally, these are different research projects we’re going on. And people can literally, it’s science for the people, by the people.
So using the CytoSolve® technology, people can actually come up with a research question. And then we let them be essentially research directors, they can literally go, say, hey, I want to find out, we have a project going on. What’s in the jab? Right? And people are supporting it. So or let’s say, someone wants to figure out, Hey, what are the right ingredients? Or, you know, my father has been given this drug? Is it the right one? Are there side effects? So we can literally use CytoSolve® to answer these questions.
And from our view, we’ve been helping the large companies now we want to make it accessible to people. So the reciprocity model is you go raise the funding, we’ll do the work, but we’re going to do the work at 1/100 of the cost. And the time that the big, you know, organizations do it.
And the CytoSolve® technology has been published in the leading journals, universities actually come to us to use our technology. So we can do the work of 20 or 30 graduate students. So we literally opened up CytoSolve®, but where our movement now is literally creating an environment for the individual, to A; learn the Science of Systems, which is, by the way, what all the elites learn, if you don’t understand the Foundations of Systems science.
In the modern world, it’s like you have bows and arrows, and the enemy has, you know, nuclear weapons. So that’s why, you know, it’s about getting educated. And, and that’s through the Science of Systems. Step one.
Once you learn the Science of Systems, we’ve also built an online community, independent of big tech, you can interact with other people, then you can become an activist, we teach you how to do that you can, you know, deliver solutions. So we have, essentially, I have all these arsenals of solutions that people can now say, Hey, I think something’s wrong.
In my city or my county with the audit, well, we give them tools to go do audits. Okay. We teach people how you can actually be a citizen journalist.
We’re teaching people how you can actually understand the body as a system, essentially becoming your own doctor, which is what Hippocrates said we’re supposed to do. In fact, we have many medical doctors and nurses who go through our training and we certify them because doctors and medical healers don’t learn. The body is a system they learn in parts.
So everything begins with the Science of Systems.
Will: I think this is very educational and something that people need.
Dr.SHIVA:Today, yeah. So yeah, I think to your audience, I think the key message is that you know, the guy who invented emails revolutionizing medicine, but the other part of that is, I want to teach people the Science of Systems, because it is actually the knowledge base that will enable people to get to Truth Freedom Health®. Without this knowledge base.
It’s all just bullshitting people, you’re just sort of being an activist, you’re trying to fight, but you really don’t have the real tools to fight the Science of Systems is tools to fight for a better world. It’s a tool to fight for your better body, your better health, and understanding everything in and around you. So it all begins with the Science of Systems.
Will: Wow. So now I have even more questions than I originally did.
Dr.SHIVA: But let me let me do you mind if I just do a quick break here?
Will: No, that’s fine. Yeah.
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, one of the things I remember, I want to do a so one of the things that so what would you like you know, one is, I can play you a video of the Journey to Systems I can play a video of CytoSolve® I can play a video of one of the products we’ve created which CytoSolve® and mV25™. Which one would you like to hear about?
Will: The product.
Dr.SHIVA: Alright, let me play that. So essentially the backdrop and is in 2003 I created this technology to model essentially biomolecular pathways on the computer. We helped a lot of different companies. We’ve helped major, you know, companies out there and then about two years ago, I said wait a minute, we now have all these mathematical models.
Why don’t we go after pain and inflammation? Could we create a product that could essentially challenge some of these other products, but you know come from natural ingredients, okay, and help alleviate discomfort and pain and that’s so we created that so let me play that for you right here.
Will: That’s a really interesting product. Um, I want to try it out myself because I suffer from back pain or separate from it since a boxing incident that I was in, like eight years ago. And the only thing that works is like routine chiropractic treatment. But I feel like that’s something that if I don’t keep up with, you know, the pain continues.
Dr.SHIVA: So, yeah, but the interesting thing here is that science is changing. And one of the opportunities we have with this technology is that as new science comes out, we can keep testing new things, right?
And in the traditional systems of medicine, they wouldn’t even give you one herb or one compound, they would always do mixing. It’s called alchemy. It’s a real art.
So in many ways, medicine is an information science, but it’s also an art. So what CytoSolve® does is it helps us bring that together, we’re modeling the molecular pathways, and then we’re figuring out combinations. So the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, right? So that’s what we’re finding, that’s a concept called Synergy.
Will: And how long has this product been? How long have you had this product available? I know it’s new.
Dr.SHIVA: It’s been out for about a year now. Okay, less than a year. And the critical thing about it is that both of the ingredients that are coming from they’re coming from natural ingredients; flavonoids, the whole area of bioflavonoids in nature is not fully appreciated. You know, the stuff in the skin of fruits, right? What’s in the skin of a lemon or vegetables.
The active components in there are very, very powerful. That’s why in traditional systems of medicine, they would use a mortar and pestle, right? They would grind these things, what they were doing was refining them to get the critical ingredients that you could use. So that’s essentially what we’ve done.
We’ve done alchemy here using CytoSolve® as an engine. I know when you had spoken to Crystal earlier. I mean, I don’t know how much time we have. But we could talk about a number of topics if it involves, you know, some of the medical areas that you may be interested in. But it’s really, you know, I have a thing for another 15 minutes. It’s up to you.
Will: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.
Dr.SHIVA: Because we can go longer, I mean, we go longer, it’s fine.
Will: Yeah, no, I do have a lot of questions. Um, so I mean, I guess to sort of switch gears a little bit. Um, I want to discuss vaccines.
It’s a very controversial topic now. I feel like people are not seeing the subject clearly. They’re viewing people who are hesitant to get COVID vaccines as being Anti-Vaxx, which is really not the case, I’m noticing a lot of people, including myself, that are apprehensive with the COVID vaccine aren’t necessarily anti-vaccine per se, they’re just cautious because of the fact that this is an entirely different way of producing vaccines with mRNA, etc. Not to mention the growing number of reactions that people are having to it.
So I just want to say, I just want to ask you, what are your thoughts on the COVID vaccine? And vaccines collectively? Do you feel like they’re not as regulated as standard medication? So that’s why they’re being pushed now. But you know, you could answer that.
Dr.SHIVA: Yes. So back in 2019. So let me tell you that so first of all, the discussion here, you know, science is you know, broadly. What’s interesting is scientific facts or engineering facts. It’s really, really important if you’re a scientist or an engineer to do the noble duty of science and engineering, which is to tell the truth, but to tell it at the right time. Okay. Not after the fact.
Do you follow what I’m saying? So let me explain. So if you’re an engineer, and you knew the space shuttles, the O rings were going to blow up and they were never tested. For extremely cold temperatures, it would be important for you to tell and take the heat and be a real hero.
Before the space shuttle took off, and drum beat put your ass on the line, right? Make a sacrifice, you may lose your job. And that’s what happened with a guy called Alan McDonald. He was a guy who was a director at Morton Thiokol.
And he said, Wait a minute, the O rings are never tested for these extremely cold temperatures. You know, I cannot sign off on the launch. NASA put him under pressure, management did and he was demoted. But he still stood his ground. He just died about a year ago. And he said the most important thing in life is to say the right thing at the right time to the right people.
Well, in 2019, I was speaking at the National Science Foundation, I said look, and I gave a talk on Beyond Vaxx and Anti-Vaxx; the need for precision and personalized medicine, the right medicine, for the right person, at the right time. There’s a room full of 200 people. I was invited to be the main speaker at the prestige lecture at NSF. And I went through the paper that people can get in our shop.
It’s called the Modern Science of the Immune System. And I said, look, the immune system idea that’s used to create modern vaccines is based on a 1915 model, one five. But the reality is that the immune system understanding is far more complex. It’s a much more complex system. And I said the concept of giving everyone the same intervention makes no sense. No one had a problem with that.
What Fauci started doing this stuff in January, it was, I was the lone guy out there who first exposed it. We started the fire Fauci campaign. I didn’t see Robert Malone there.
I didn’t see Robert Kennedy attacking him, then. I didn’t see any of these doctors, even though they knew it was wrong. It wasn’t fashionable then to attack Fauci, but I knew he was a complete fraud. Because I have a PhD in Biological Engineering.
I study this stuff, and I know the Military-Academic-Complex, where Fauci has been a bureaucrat for how many years, 40-50 years, he controls the flow of money. And I’ve always maintained my own independence, not like most of the people in academia. So I was able to go out and expose him.
And I base it on a fundamental notion. It’s about precision medicine. It’s not about vaccines or Anti-Vaxx. It’s about what’s the right medicine for the right person at the right time. Well, it’s only now three months ago, these guys like Robert Malone and these doctors come out well you’re too little too late. You’re not a hero.
You already have 80-90% of people you know jabbed and now you’re coming out. So you want to be the guy who says you know I was with pharma and you want to be the hero. No, you don’t get it that way. And this is what we need to understand: there are people that do not say the right thing, at the right time.
They put their head up, they watch which way the wind blows. And if the wind is blowing this like, you know, Tucker Carlson does this. He’s a grifter.
He’s a master grifter. Joe Rogan does this, another master grifter, okay. In 2014 and 15, I had just written five scientific papers, clearly showing that genetically engineered foods disrupt biomolecular pathways at the plant level, and glutathione levels will go down, formaldehyde will come up.
Many people called Rogan and said, You should have Dr. Jeevan. At that time, he had a guy called Kevin Folta on, who is a Fauci of GMOs promoting him. All right. And So he was Pro-GMO, then. I don’t care what he says, he’s very clever, trying to act as though he’s some impartial guy bullshit. He was promoting Folta.
And then he watched which way the wind was blowing. And he noticed that in September, October, you know, his sales were sort of flat on Spotify. Then he says he’s against the vaccine mandates.
Well, if you do a curve, about how many people got vaccinated, and then when he’s coming in saying this, well, you’re a little bit too little too late, you know, and then he tries to act as though the dialectic of him and Neil Young. I mean, I know Young, I did an event with him many years ago against the GMOs. And in retrospect, Neil Young was pushing out an album against Monsanto.
So you see, these people are entertainers. They’re not thought leaders. So Neil Young was against GMOs, but he’s pushing an album. And then he became Pro-Vaxx. Joe Rogan at the time was Pro-GMO, and now he’s, quote unquote, Anti-Vaxx. Okay.
My point is, that the reason I’m answering this question is that had in January of 2020, the so-called experts who now are coming up two years ago, we wouldn’t have had this issue. So when it comes to changing the world, it’s about saying the right thing at the right time. That’s true courage and true heroism.
Not after the fact watching which way the wind blows, because now you want to be an entertainer and you want now it’s now it’s cool to talk to be against vaccine mandates, you see? So when it comes to this issue, you know, I’ve never taken a flu shot or any of this stuff ever in my life, right? My view is that, if you look at the immune system, it’s a very complex system. Every system in the universe is meant to undergo resilience training, which is you’re supposed to expose it to stress. And then based on that exposure to stress, the system will respond and get stronger, you want to get strong, go lift weights, you may get sore, your body strengthens.
We’re supposed to be exposing people in there at a young age to many different dust, frankly, or dirt and all this stuff and your body will respond. Now we’re keeping all of our kids in these little sterile homes.
Will: So isolated, yeah.
Dr.SHIVA: So isolated, don’t expose them. So the immune system never has a chance to get smacked and come back. So it’s becoming essentially a weakened immune system.
Now in that weakened state, imagine the extreme case, you bring up a kid in a bubble chamber, he’s never allowed to go out. And then one day he leaves any experiences all this dust, he’s probably going to get destroyed. So kid like that, you may have to titrate him, right? Slow dose him otherwise he’s gonna freak out.
If you look at polio, for example, prior to 1905, polio was in everyone’s water, everyone got polio. But you were exposed to it at a young age before two years old. And when you got exposed to it before two years old, it was a all you got was diarrhea, your body’s immune system built when you were getting breastfed, and you were fine.
But when hygiene came in a weird way, when we isolated people from dirty water, then later in life, people get exposed to the polio virus and then it has a much more dangerous effect, okay, because the body was never exposed to it. So it didn’t have a chance to know how to modulate itself. And by the way, it is not a virus that kills you.
Okay. What kills you is not the virus, it’s your body’s overreaction to the immune response generated by that exogenous antigen. Okay.
And every virus has a particular place, by the way. I think I did video after video after video in November 2019, and in early 2020, okay. And when I did these videos, I got a call from a chief economist at the White House, he said, “Dr.Shiva, I saw your video, Trump is not listening to us, he’s blindly following Fauci, we’re headed into an economic disaster, please do more videos.”
And that’s when I started educating people. You know, I think there was a vitamin D video I did, I think back in February of 2020, which got, I think, like 50 million views, which was taken down.
So the issue is, what I feel good about was, we did the right thing, at the right time. So one of the things we teach in our system science course, is that what System Science teaches us is that if you want to achieve a goal, you have to put the right inputs into your body, etc. But you also have to understand there are disturbances that come in our way.
So if we want Truth Freedom Health®, there are people who oppose that. And the biggest people get our way is not the Fauci but it’s the Not-So-Obvious Establishment. Will, the people that claim they want to help us.
The people run the Breast Cancer Foundation, the people who run the Children’s Health Defence Fund, the Robert Kennedy’s, the people, the Donald Trump’s, who claim he wants to help us but didn’t do what? He didn’t lock Hillary up. He didn’t do.
Will: Yeah, that’s another thing that I wanted to talk about you I know people are a lot of people who are opposed to these mandates that whether it be vaccine or mask, etc, are very Pro-Trump. And while I appreciate the fact that, you know, Trump wants people to have the choice, I also feel Trump was the one that pushed the vaccines from the get go.
So if these mRNA vaccines specifically, so if people do start having adverse reactions from them in the coming years, and you know, they discover that it’s been causing more harm than good to all these millions of people who’ve gotten the shot already?
Well, it’s essentially Trump’s fault, because he was the biggest pusher of this under the guise that it would reopen the economy. So what are your thoughts about that? Because a lot of people say, now that, oh, if you’re anti vaccine, you’re a Trumper.
When I don’t, it doesn’t really make sense to me, because Trump was the one who pushed the whole vaccine initiative from the get go, correct?
What’s happened is the establishment in power does something very, very clever, and listens to this very carefully. They create the biggest disturbance they create. The distraction is they create the dialectic in any situation, they create the Pro and the Anti.
So we get lost in the Pro and the Anti discourse versus looking at what the real solution is. So Trump comes in, I’m gonna have a long discussion on Trump, but Trump came in under the guise of locking up Hillary, you know, getting rid of the swamp, and so on, right? But he brought in the biggest swamp creatures of the planet; Bolton, Rex Tillerson, you can go down the list, okay? He didn’t do anything to Fauci. Okay, he accelerated Operation Warpspeed.
Alright. So these people in power are extremely clever. And this one is hard for people to understand. They are so clever. Words don’t mean anything to them. It’s all about grifting. All the polls are I’m gonna say this, but I’m going to say it like this. And I’m going to couch it like this, so I can still keep my audience. So it’s like they get an audience.
And they want to grow that audience. And they don’t want to lose that audience. So they’re all They’re constantly doing this manipulation, their master, snake oil marketers, they don’t give a fuck about you.
That’s what people need to understand. So any side will say what it needs to say to keep its audience. And they have a market, they have a target that they created. That’s like consumer marketing. So if you look at the origin of all of this, go back to 2008. There was another guy called Obama, by the way, 50 to 60% of Trump voters voted for Obama.
Will: Which is fascinating, because it seems like they bought into the same marketing plan “change.”
Dr.SHIVA: Right? So Obama comes in a black guy out of nowhere, and they push him as hope and change.
And he was gonna, you know, fight for working people. What does he do at the end of the day? He prints $4.2- $4.8 trillion to save Goldman Sachs, the Big Banks, that’s what he did in that White House meeting that, you know, midnight. So he should have let the big banks fail. He didn’t. He saved them. And what they did was in fact, he saved his elite friends, they printed $4.2 trillion, and interest rates were kept artificially low.
All right. Now, the dam was gonna burst, you can’t keep interest rates as low. Because if the working people are truly working and small businesses are thriving, well, you know, the demand for money is going to go up, which means interest rates should go up naturally.
But the people like Jared Kushner, the people like the real estate developers, the way they succeed is by keeping interest rates low. Okay. Well, how can you have vibrancy in the economy, which is going to drive interest rates up and vibrancy is brought in by working people in small businesses, not by huge corporations, who many of them aren’t really doing anything significant.
Many of them are surviving on low interest rates. And that’s how they do their corporate bonds, right? Low debt, they need to keep interest rates low. That’s how they’re getting money for bogus businesses, which shouldn’t even be around.
So, that was going to blow up. And the elite recognized that working people had enough of Obama; blacks and whites, so they needed a new hero. So they dug up Trump. Trump was their answer to manipulating the white working class. So any Trumper by the way, I voted for Trump. I never voted in my life.
First guy I voted for gave him money. But I figured out a schtick after a while. But if you really think about it, the white working class in this country has always been abused by both wings of the establishment.
So, one wing of the establishment will give them a Democrat, one day they gave them Obama. And then when the white working class got upset, they went and dug up Trump. I mean, he’s really a B, or C grade actor.
Okay. And his job was and that’s why if Trumpers believe elections are selections, you have to follow that all the way through. If elections are selections, then how did Trump get into office? He can’t be the exception.
The elites needed him. They knew the trajectory that was happening in the United States with the average American only has $400 in their bank account. 80% of Americans only have 400 bucks in their bank account.
And the amount of consolidation of power and profit and control that’s occurred over the last 10 years is quite incredible. In fact, in the last term under Trump, you know, 600 billionaires doubled their wealth, while small businesses were going out of business. Okay. So Trump was tough.
In my view, Trump was a casting call that was made. He gets brought in. And what does he actually do first of all, Obama saved Big Banks, Trumps saved Big Pharma.
Big Pharma has been tanking this what people don’t know. And I was, again, the one that educated people on this, cause I know the pharmaceutical industry because of CytoSolve®, you know, we know these guys, right. But the pharmaceutical industry has been tanking.
Because pharmaceutical drug development is a ridiculous model. They just throw shit against the wall and something works. They test it and it takes him 15 years and $5 billion.
Well, that industry has been tanking, Pfizer’s revenue fell by $25 billion from 2012 to 2020. Pfizer made more money in one year than they did in one quarter than they did in all the losses incurred over the last 10 years. Thanks to Trump.
And they also, Pfizer donated to Trump’s inauguration. Okay, so Pharma has been tanking high regulations, they’re not putting out new products? Well, the jab you don’t need to there’s no regulations. You can’t sue pharma companies, what an amazing market, you could put out whatever crap you want, and there’s no liability.
Who else would not want to be in that kind of market? So Trump accelerated Operation Warpspeed, they created this thing called a pandemic, right. And what you have is pharma sales. I mean, Pfizer did $45 billion in one year, and I calculated that two years before that, or a year before that. But you have to follow the money.
So they make it Vaxx & Anti-Vaxx, that’s really not the issue. The real issue we should be talking about is how do we get real health? Right? So it’s, frankly, easy to be against the vaccine mandate. That’s not revolutionary.
That’s not You’re not really, okay. Big, big fucking deal. But what were you saying back in 2020? Did you call out Fauci, what did you do then? Because had we had a mass movement then we could have stopped all this. So this is where what you have you have opportunists. Rand Paul is now running a fire Fauci campaign. I didn’t see him two years ago.
We came up with that hashtag. We said we got 150,000 signatures and drove it to Trump and gave it to him. It’s important in life to do the right thing at the right time. We have to judge our heroes and our leaders. What did they do at the time? Not after the fact. So people got to remove these, you know, illusion and stop being, you know, Star fuckers and following, you know, Rogen or Neil Young or Trump.
It’s a mentality that Hollywood builds into people. These people are opportunists. If it’s one day good to be against GMOs, Neil Young will do it. And another bad day to be against Vax. He’ll do it. If it’s one day good for Joe Rogan to be against GMOs.
And another day, I mean, for GMOs another day to say you’re against vaccines, he’ll do that. And if you notice, he’s very clever at playing people. He played the game and then he apologized to Spotify and Spotify stock went up 12%.
And Spotify is a $28 billion company. Joe Rogan is with the number one creative agency in the world, which, you know, supports all sorts of people who’ve been affiliations with pedophiles and so on. Yeah. So people need to get their head out of their ass.
The issue is going Beyond Vaxx & Anti-Vaxx, Beyond Mask & Anti mask, Beyond Republican & Democrat, Beyond Left & Right. A Systems Approach says okay, any issue, what is a real solution? It’s not about Pro-racism & Anti-racism, the real the real issues, we don’t have infrastructure in the inner cities. No one wants to solve that. Because you solve that racism goes away. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. When it comes to the vaxx & Anti-Vaxx, it’s about public health and the right medicine for the right time when it’s Mask & Anti-Mask, it’s really about the mouth, you put a mask on your mouth, you’re affecting the oral health of this, it increases, it reduces pH. Right, your mouth becomes more acidic, you’re going to get periodontal disease.
Did you consider that when you thought about this intervention, you say, but more profoundly, are people talking about the right medicine, for the right person? So our movement says, on any issue, figure out what the real solution is, and drive the discourse there. But what as long as you’re Pro & Anti, you can make money off that, you know?
Will: I was gonna say, speaking of Fauci, a lot of stuff has come to light about his prior involvement decades ago with HIV. And there’s a lot of conspiracy surrounding that. So I wanted to sort of like see where you stand as far as that goes?
Dr.SHIVA: Well, so in 1993, you know, I was in Hawaii.
And I’d been given a book called The AIDS war by a guy called Duisburg. Okay. And if you’ve read this book, it’s a pretty good book.
And in my gut, I felt something never made sense that HIV causes AIDS. Let me tell you why. Robert Gallo, who is supposedly the guy who created the HIV test, had published a study showing the HIV virus eating a macrophage essentially attacking the immune system.
I said, this doesn’t make any sense. I said, our immune system has evolved over billions of years something that could attack the immune system didn’t make any sense. Okay. It’s my first gut reaction. So anyway, I read this book I’m going on in Hawaii, and I was staying with a friend of mine, and his mom.
And the book basically says, by the way, Robert Gallo was Fauci’s contemporary. Who is exposed? You can go read in the, in the front page in New York Times for serious scientific misconduct.
He had bullshitted data, okay. Guess who came to his rescue? Fauci. All right. Now, in the analysis Duisburg did, he took the first 87 AIDS patients and everyone should go read this.
And he said, and by the way, Robert Duisburg had won… He’s one it was at that time when the most esteemed scientists had won every NIH award, was nominated for the Nobel Nobel Prize, Professor Berkeley for discovering retroviruses. Okay, so he’s not some schlock.
So Duisburg goes and looks at the first 87 AIDS patient cases. And he finds that by the way, there’s, there’s by the way, there’s still not to this one day, one paper showing directly HIV causing AIDS. Okay, and at that time also, using Koch’s hypothesis, it’s called Okay, so Duisburg, however, found out there were nearly 200 papers showing that Amyl Nitrate causes immunodeficiency.
So what is AIDS, AIDS is when your T cell count goes below, let’s say 70 Which means your entire immune system is compromised, okay? Now your immune system can get compromised, in many ways. Many, many ways. Okay, so there are 200 papers written saying Amyl Nitrates, which are known as poppers, in that time of the gay community, people would take poppers to prolong orgasms, okay.
And it was a fact in the 70s. You know, there was was a lot of, you know, one gay person would not just have one partner, but many partners, okay. It was the culture.
And it’s no discrimination is just what it was so, so poppers are being heavily used. And there are 200 papers showing that amyl nitrates because if you look at it’s a benzene ring or carcinogenic, and it can destroy your immune system. So if someone is doing massive hits of poppers, you’re going to destroy the immune system.
So what Duisburg found was nearly 90% of those 87 AIDS cases were heavy users of poppers. Okay. So they were destroying their immune system.
It’s like basically putting carcinogens in your body all day long. The second set of people Duisburg found were people who were IV drug users. It’s not from the needles, it’s the actual heroin, and the drugs are taking so many drugs that are destroying your immune system.
And then the third group where people are getting transfusions, and again, people say, Aha, you’re transmitting the virus through the needle? No, what’s happening is if someone gets a blood transfusion, God forbid, you have to get one. What does the hospital do? They give you immunosuppressive drugs, they have to suppress your immune system. So you can get someone else’s blood because you don’t want your body to react to their blood.
They actually lower your immune system. If you get two blood transfusions in a short period of time, your body, you have to go into the ICU because your immune system is that of an AIDS patient. Okay.
The woman I was staying with was the mother of my friend, right? She’s the one who gave me the book I said, and she said she had AIDS. And I said, Wow, so you’re not taking Amyl Nitrates.You’re not getting a blood transfusion. So, were you a drug user. She goes, yeah, she goes Shiva. I was a heavy heroin addict.
Okay. And in fact, there’s a movie, I think they came out with what’s his name? Matthew McConaughey. That talks, right? And the lifestyle that he lived was a very decadent lifestyle.
And he had destroyed his immune system. And then he goes, there’s a whole story of how he works his body back up. The point is when Duisburg came up with that he was vilified.
How could you say this? You’re anti gay, you’re against homosexuals, and you’re against science. So overnight, this guy who was one of the youngest guys to win the NIH award, one of the youngest tenured professors, right. Nominated for the Nobel Prize gets, you know, blacklisted, okay? My sister is an MD, when I brought this up, she goes, Oh, you’re an idiot, there’s no way this could be true.
And then over the last 10 years, since then, they started calling it AIDS related diseases. They, they, they were forced to separate HIV with AIDS. Because there’s a lot of people with HIV who didn’t get AIDS.
And in fact, the CDC statistics are kept so horribly that they actually have when someone gets aids, let’s say you don’t eat well, for 30 days, and you take a lot of drugs, you’re staying awake, you’re going to lower your immune system, it’s obvious, you’re going to get all sorts of viruses CMV, this virus that virus, syphilis, well, the CDC only was recording HIV, always. Your body was infiltrated with many viruses. And then they did a correlation.
Oh, your T cell count is 70. What virus? HIV, it’s like nonsense. So the discussion moved to again, the same old medical establishment model of associating a bug with a disease. And this has been the history of medicine over the last 100 years. As we got better and better at using microscopes and detection. always associate a bug with a disease.
Oh, you got scurvy, that must be because of hygiene. Oh, you have pellagra that must be because of those Italians who are carrying bugs. Okay. And so on. So every time you had a problem it must be a bug. And now with these high powered microscopes, you could always find something in your body that you could correlate to some disease you had.
Okay. So, now people are very clever. So you know, there was, you know, AIDS became a massive industry, right? Nonprofit industry.
AZT, which was a drug, which was a cancer drug, which was a failed drug under the Nixon administration was pulled to use for AIDS and it killed a lot of people, a good friend of mine died of it, okay. So the reality is, we don’t talk about strengthening the immune system, we don’t talk about the things that destroy your immune system. We talk about always saying this bug must cause us, therefore kill the bug.
There’s so many bugs, you have 380 trillion viruses in your body right now you have 60 trillion bacteria, you’re a walking jungle of bugs. The issue is how do you build a resilient immune system. And that discourse is not taken.
Because that leads to nutrition and health. And, you know, learning how to not be sick, right? But as long as war and sickness, you profit from war and sickness, you’re not going to teach people how to be healthy. So the real opportunity in the discussion about AIDS and HIV is to recognize that they’re decoupled.
You could have AIDS and you don’t have HIV. You can cause AIDS in someone like that. If you want to give them you know, make sure they don’t eat anything, eat crap all day. And take IV drugs all day. Don’t get any sleep, party all night and you’re gonna destroy your immune system, guaranteed. You’re gonna get all sorts of bugs in you.
So that’s what people need to discuss. But if you discuss that, the establishments, particularly the Big Pharma industry, has gotten so good at branding a social cause. To distract attention. Yeah. Let me give you an example.
Many, many years ago, in 1996, one of my companies EchoMail was a company that could automatically analyze email and figure out crises that were emerging. I remember I had a meeting with a guy who was working for the number one PR agency called Burson Marsteller. Okay.
Go look them up. They’re the number one crisis management firm. And, you know, we went out to dinner. And he was boasting about his great ways that he’d saved companies during crises. And I said, Give me Give me your best example. Because Oh, Eli Lilly goes, I saved that company, Eli Lilly makes Prozac.
Okay. He said, when he met them, Eli Lilly, sales were going down. And they were in a major crisis. No one was buying Prozac, their leading drug. I said, What did you do? Because well, first of all, I went in, and I changed the branding of their company, not from like, we’re a drug company Forget it was like, but we help the world. Then what he said they did was wetten. Started a nonprofit, nonprofits and forgot one of them.
One of the nonprofits was to stop women from being battered. Okay, sounds all good. And that nonprofit would take out full page ads in major newspapers and magazines saying, Is your husband beating you? Do you know a friend whose husband is beating her? Make sure the husband is taking Prozac. Okay, so they position themselves as someone who’s fighting for battered women.
But what they really did was push Prozac. Okay, so there are people who say, Oh, yeah, we stand for gay rights, you know, let’s get AZT out there. You know, we got to fight AIDS. They conflated aids with HIV very cleverly. And AZT killed a lot of people. And we never addressed the problem of boosting people’s immunity, that was never discussed.
Or lifestyle, right. So the pharma companies, in fact, made it that you were against gay people. If you even brought that up. You see how clever they are? You’re against battered women, if you question people taking Prozac.
Will: Yeah. So it’s intimidation
Dr.SHIVA: It’s called cause related marketing. Many years ago, when I used to do consulting for a company called Gateway computers, I met the guy. He was a professor of marketing, who founded this concept called cause-related marketing.
It is where companies take on a cause, okay? Like we support the whales, they may not give a fuck about the whales. But they say they support the Whales to distract attention from some other pollution that they’re doing over here. So they say oh, yeah, we got to support, we got to stop battered women.
But they’re pushing Prozac. Oh my god, we care for the gay community. You know, we got to stop aids. So this stuff is very, very cleverly done. And people need to understand that, you know,
Will: That sort of ties into something else that I wanted to discuss. So recently, there’s been this big push the past several years, this big marketing push I see on almost every social media app I go on.
And you know how that whole situation is. They want to know whatever person you are, so they advertise things towards you PReP. And I feel like, I’m sure you’re familiar with PReP that they’re pushing now. Because they say like, yeah, if you take it, there’s a big chance, there’s like a 90%, something almost 99% chance that you won’t contract HIV, etc.
But, I mean, my friends have spoken about this for years. I mean, I never took it, but you have to take it, but yet you need blood work every three months, because they need to monitor your kidneys. So there’s been a lot of discussion that it could lead to kidney damage long term, in conjunction with the fact that there’s like a lot of people thinking that this is going to give birth to some super HIV or some super STD.
So what are your thoughts on that?
Dr.SHIVA: Well, look, if someone’s telling you to take, basically trying to tell you to take a prophylactic, right to pro Yeah. Yeah.
You know, go back to first principles. If you look at any system in the universe, systems are designed to be tested and come back stronger. Okay? The issue is you have a strong system, it’s called resilience.
And that requires, so when you look at the immune system to cardiovascular, I mean, take your cardiovascular system, you’re supposed to work out. Suppose you don’t exercise at all, and you don’t use your heart, your heart is going to weaken, right? If you don’t work, your muscles are going to weaken, if you don’t work your immune system, it’s going to weaken itself. So you have to go back to first principles, Will.
So once you hang your hat on these first principles, everything else is easy to figure out. So that’s my answer to that. So if you’re not strengthening that system, and that’s not the main focus, and you’re trying to think I’m going to give a prophylactic to what? Is it really going to strengthen the system? Right? So that’s really the question.
So this point of a Systems Approach to life, I’m going to just play a quick video, it’ll help you understand where I’m coming from. Hold on, let me just play this here.
Anyway, the reason I want to play that video is that that video sort of in a very concise way, sort of, I guess, summarizes where we’re at, and why the only way out of this Will, is for people to get educated.
And so people we want to change the world, we need to recognize that you can sort of, you know, meander around this process, make a lot of mistakes, or there is a science to doing this no different than a science to building anything. And that knowledge that says science of systems, those in power actually learned this; Kennedy School of Government, Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, right. The elites have their Think Tank institutions, they train people in the Science of Systems.
And that’s why they’re able to map out like a chess move. 20 steps ahead. And so when ordinary working people see all the stuff occur, or everyday people they’re trying to, they’re all confused about what the hell’s going on.
But all these points were mapped out. Because it’s the Science of Systems. And if people don’t believe me on this, there’s an organization called the Democracy Fund, started by a guy called Pierre Omidyar, who’s the guy who started eBay, multi billionaire.
And he funds a lot of the neoliberals, by the way, there’s a difference between liberal classical liberalism, and what you call today, neoliberalism neoliberalism, essentially is fascism, you know, covered in some statements that you want to help people or something, right. But the Democracy Fund is a neoliberal organization. If you go to the site, it says, you know, it’s really important to learn systems thinking. Jay Forester was one of my mentors, who is known as one of the fathers of System Science.
He wanted to teach systems thinking at the kindergarten age. So we’re in a world now of complex systems. And if people don’t understand System Science, they’re never really gonna be able to get there.
It’s like the blind men looking at the pieces of the elephant, they don’t see the whole elephant. So people are never gonna really understand what to do in a situation. They won’t be able to see things where they’re going, where the hockey pucks are actually going.
That’s why you know, our movement was able to call out Fauci for a long time. You know, you can See this stuff two years ahead, three years ahead. And in a world that we’re in now we need to be able to do that if we’re going to be successful, and then you need to mobilize people on that, not two years later, it’s too late.
Will: Everyone has gotten the vaxx and then it’s like, oh, well, now it’s trendy. So I’ll hop on it.
Dr.SHIVA: What’s that now? You know, you’d be for that. Well, now it’s trendy to be for the vaccine mandates.
Will: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I’m saying. So it’s like, it’s like, I feel like Joe Rogan and all these people, I think it’s great that they are speaking out. Don’t get me wrong.
Dr.SHIVA: No, it isn’t. This is why we hit them. To me they have to be attacked.
Let me tell you why. Sam Tripoli had me on a show about a year ago and his other friend. Were Joe’s friends and they said, Oh my God, we got to get Dr. Shiva on. Joe will never put someone like me on and nor will I ever go on a show after what I’ve figured him out. Because he is what I call your true scumbag.
It is not the Fauci’s that destroy the world. It is the Joe Rogan’s because they know how to play people. They know how to make people think they’re fighting for them. Gandhi, another big scumbag. He destroyed the movement for independence in India. He was parachuted in to act as though he was a saint.
And he ensured that the transfer of power took place from the British elite to the Indian elites, and he suffocated the natural revolutionary movements in India. That is how sophisticated Madison Avenue has become.
If anyone has a true, true, true threat to the establishment, they’re not going to be part of a $28.5 billion industry called Spotify. And anyone who wants to suck up to these entertainers and defend them, and say, Oh, my God, Rogan’s against, Rogan’s against Neil Young, you’re an idiot you’ve already been brought into the you’ve already part of the dialectic.
You’re screwed. Because you think Rogan is your fighter. Rogan is not your fighter. Rogan is a guy who was doing crazy spectacle sports with people eating maggots, and you know, he’s just an entertainer. Yeah. So this is a level of consciousness. The elites want people to be at a, you know, at a subhuman state of consciousness.
So and when they want to give them entertainers to make them think the entertainers are their heroes; Trump, Obama, Gandhi, and they always, even Martin Luther King, okay? They give people good speeches, put them in robes, you know, I mean, it’s all theater. It’s theater.
And so, the reason you know the purpose of our movement for Truth Freedom Health® is to teach people how to recognize the Not-So-Obvious establishment, because the Not-So-Obvious establishment is the most powerful weapon that the establishment uses, because they know people are going to get angry, they’re going to come up.
They know this. In the election systems integrity movement, and a bunch of Grifters talk all sorts of bullshit, that had nothing to do with the real issues. So you don’t focus on the real issues. The Not-So-Obvious establishment exists to distract people like, you know, showing a shiny thing to a monkey.
So people have to make up their minds whether they want to be subhumans or do they want to be human beings. And if they want to be human beings, they have to have courage, they have to let go of all of the nonsense that the establishment has continually plastered them with, brainwashing. You know, celebrities are supposed to be your heroes.
It’s just, you know, you go to a country like China. It’s not that I support that, you know, their members of their government are engineers, scientists. They see a 1000 year plan.Our politicians can’t even see one foot ahead. You know, Trump didn’t even know where Finland was. He thought Finland was part of Russia.
Okay. So you have a lot of stupidity. And in the midst of all this information, in the midst of the fact that people can within, you know, a few clicks can get access to information. You also have the reverse going on, the mass stupidity of people, following people like Rogan.
Will: Yeah. And I just, it’s ironic, because using Tik Tok as an example, it’s banned in China, but yet it’s the most popular app here.
Yeah. And it’s sort of it’s sort of like, well, why would it be banned there? But yet, it’s here and people’s attention spans are already extremely short. And I feel like it just caters to, you know, diminishing people’s intellect.
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, it’s very well engineered, but that’s why they create, they want Biden versus Trump. Maybe if that doesn’t work from an entertainment show, it’ll be Trump versus Hillary right? So Gore Vidal said that politicians are just uglier actors. You No, that’s all he said.
It’s just, it’s a very close knit industry. And the only way out of this, as I said in that video, is to build a Bottoms-Up movement. That means you have to get educated. That means you have to learn the Science of Systems, where right now as far as I know, there’s only one movement in the world that can do that. It’s our movement for Truth Freedom Health®. If there was some other movement, I wouldn’t be doing this, I’d be vacationing, I’d be doing other things, but there is no other movement.
And it is the only solution. And we put together that in a framework that I hope everyone takes advantage of. And, you know, so for people, you know, where I grew up in New Jersey, or I grew up in India, working class people, it is ultimately working people who get screwed if you look at what’s going on in Ukraine right now, you know, the reality is that, you know, it’s imagine a big mobster versus a small thug.
Okay, so the big mobster, here’s the United States and, and British imperialism. And in 1990, there was an agreement struck between, you know, Russia, and the United States that NATO would not take one inch to the east. Okay. And there’s no real reason for NATO anymore. Okay. NATO has essentially become an interventionist power of the United States and British imperialism.
So anyway, right after they signed that agreement, immediately, NATO went into East Germany and Gorbachev segwayed. What are you guys doing? He was and the United States at Oh, well, we did that was a verbal agreement. It wasn’t a written agreement. Okay.
You’ve had NATO pushing more and more and more east, okay. And, British imperialism is very good at always making everyone else seem like mongrels and villains and, you know, crazy people. They did this in World War One against Kaiser Wilhelm.
They made him look like he was some crazy guy. He wanted to take over the world as though Britain didn’t. But he was just essentially the new thug. He was a new bully coming up on the block, but a small one. So Britain is a big bully, they don’t even want small bullies, they had to wipe him out. So Putin may be a small bully.
But it was clear according to the discussions, that you will never, you know, NATO is not supposed to go and encroach on Ukraine and fuck around with them. Right. So the Black Sea is one of the most important strategic areas.
That’s how Russia gets out, you know, they go through the Straits of Bosphorus. So and by the way, Crimeans have always felt part of Russia, even the polls or 97% of Crimea want to be part of Russia. And the eastern part of Ukraine has been seeking its own independence, the Donbas region for years since 2014, after the United States under Obama, put in a right wing Nazi like guy to run the place, Ukraine.
So obviously, the people on the eastern parts were wait a minute, we don’t want these Neo Nazis here, so and they were culturally very different and they wanted their own independent place. Minsk, the Minsk 2 agreements, were supposed to help resolve that, which was okay. Well, we’ll give you a separate state within Ukraine, Ukraine will still be an autonomous country, but the United States and Britain never pushed Ukraine to resolve this. They almost wanted to goad.
I mean, imagine if China moved, made an agreement with Mexico or Canada tomorrow to become part of the, you know, one of their organizations, you know, so this is incentivized, because British and US imperialism want to have, they want to make money off of this. And ultimately, who gets screwed are the Russian working people, the Ukrainian working people, the British working people, the American working people because we’re the ones who are sent to fight the wars of the elites. I don’t think Jeff Bezos will be fighting this war.
Or his kids. I don’t think Elon Musk’s kids will be fighting this war. But it will be the kids of everyday working people. So it’s really, really time that people get their head out of their ass and realize it’s not about Ukraine. I mean, Zelensky is an actor, a comedian, who was a moron, okay? He doesn’t give a damn about his own people really, you know, he’s a puppet of British imperialism, and US imperialism. And what is being teed up right now is to create the theater.
This guy was an actor. So everyone will say yeah, definitely Ukraine should become part of the EU, Ukraine should get weapons from NATO. And that’s basically gonna start World War lll at that point.
So, everything needs to be understood within the context of working people uniting. The establishment does not want the working people of Russia, the working people, Britain, the working people of; Ukraine, the Donbass, India, America uniting. They always want to keep us divided and ruled.
That is the British Empire model which has not changed for 300 years. And we’re seeing that in every step of the way. Anyway, I hope this was valuable. I have to ask if there’s one last question I have to ask. I have an appointment coming up like now.
Will: This conversation has been great. Everything you’ve said has been very educational. And thank you for your time today.
Um, if I had to choose one more question, it might be a little bit of a two-for. So, um, recently there was this article about this new form of HIV. Do you feel like the Super HIV; one, do you feel like that has anything to do with the vaccine situation? And that aside, all things related to vaccines? Do you feel like things like PReP being so promoted, um, as being gives us an invincibility complex, and that is why you’re seeing all these other STDs skyrocket?
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, I mean, look, the idea has been to outsource our health to Big Pharma. That’s what this is really about. Right?
Just think about it. And when anything can be branded as a vaccine, mRNA is really not a vaccine. Now you get the liability protection of the 1986 vaccine national injury program, which the Kennedys passed, okay.
Were involved in. So what you see as pharma companies have been going down, they’re looking for a new way to resuscitate their ailing trillion dollar industry. That’s the bottom line. Period. And I’ve been talking about this since 2003.
If you look at the old CytoSolve® presentation, where we always have this curve with pharmaceutical companies getting their revenue going down, and we thought we could help them by using CytoSolve®. So they didn’t kill animals, they could figure out stuff that did not work before they spent billions of dollars, but they’re on a different locomotive train, right. So the key point I can ask is to follow the money on this.
And if you follow the money, it’s about Big Pharma wanting you to outsource your health with this new, you know, mRNA thing or PReP or whatever it is, right. So ultimately, you’re outsourcing your health, you’re not focused on boosting your immune system, or focusing on figuring out how your body works as a system. And once they have you in that cycle, now, they can upsell you cross sell, you can sell you all sorts of products.
It’s like you’re in there, you’re in their Amazon cart, and you’re gonna check this out, they’re gonna check this you’re gonna buy this, you know, that’s what this is about.
Will: I agree. I agree. Um, thank you again, and welcome. Great podcast, and it’s gonna transcribe into a great interview, and I’ll keep you and the team in the loop with everything and then being as we are on camera if we could get one quick screenshot.
Dr.SHIVA: Yeah, yeah. Do you want me to hold on, you can get better, you can get stuff from Crystal if you want.
Will: Okay, so I’m gonna do like one quick photo once it’s together. Can you do the side by side thing? I don’t know how to do
Dr.SHIVA: You want the side by side? Okay, everyone, let me just say let me first of all, let me let everyone say goodbye. By the way, everyone. This interview will be on? Out, right?
Will: Yeah. It’ll be available. Out in Jersey magazine. It’s distributed in; New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Delaware and Pennsylvania. But you could read it on OutinNewJersey.net. And then the audio version will be available on my podcast. WillLoveListen.
Three words Will Love Listen, it’s on Spotify, as well as iTunes and iHeartRadio.
Dr.SHIVA: Okay, well, let me just say goodbye.
So by the way, everyone, I’m glad that we could do this. By the way, this is Dr.Shiva. I hope this is valuable. We went from looking at the invention of email to talking about CytoSolve®. We talked about a bunch of topics, but I will be back tomorrow. We’ll be doing a discussion on a new research project we just finished out of the Open Science Institute. Be well be the light.Thank you.
Thank you. One second.
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